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	<title>Comments on: More Markup</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: David House</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-792</link>
		<dc:creator>David House</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Sep 2004 15:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-792</guid>
		<description>You have to have at least three occurances of the hook per page to save on the 20 bytes you waste with the font-weight: normal (3 occurances, not 4, as you save on the selector). That is, of course, if you don&#039;t cache.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You have to have at least three occurances of the hook per page to save on the 20 bytes you waste with the font-weight: normal (3 occurances, not 4, as you save on the selector). That is, of course, if you don&#8217;t cache.</p>
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		<title>By: mpt</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-760</link>
		<dc:creator>mpt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:53:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-760</guid>
		<description>This is just &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i&quot;&gt;When semantic markup goes bad&lt;/a&gt;&quot; all over again. It&#039;s reassuring to see that Eric&#039;s on the same page. (So to speak.)

Jeff, yes, &lt;a href=&quot;http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/09/semantic#deprecated&quot;&gt;&lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;i&lt;/code&gt; are currently supposed to go away in &lt;abbr&gt;XHTML&lt;/abbr&gt; 2.0&lt;/a&gt;. But that&#039;s only a problem in the unlikely event that you ever use &lt;abbr&gt;XHTML&lt;/abbr&gt; 2.0.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just &#8220;<a href="http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/02/b-and-i">When semantic markup goes bad</a>&#8221; all over again. It&#8217;s reassuring to see that Eric&#8217;s on the same page. (So to speak.)</p>
<p>Jeff, yes, <a href="http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2004/05/09/semantic#deprecated"><code>b</code> and <code>i</code> are currently supposed to go away in <abbr>XHTML</abbr> 2.0</a>. But that&#8217;s only a problem in the unlikely event that you ever use <abbr>XHTML</abbr> 2.0.</p>
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		<title>By: jgraham</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-759</link>
		<dc:creator>jgraham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2004 11:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-759</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;That</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>That</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jim Dabell</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-758</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Dabell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2004 09:58:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-758</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;As far as I know, in every UA on the planet b and strong are totally interchangeable, i.e. in practice they have the same semantics.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s incorrect.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=newscache%242uci8h%24itu1%241%40server-0.office-0.foraynewmedia&quot;&gt;There are a number of search engines that weight keywords found within &lt;strong&gt; elements heavier than keywords found within &lt;b&gt; elements&lt;/a&gt;.  Why wouldn&#039;t they?

Of course, even if no user-agent on the planet distinguished between them, that&#039;s no excuse to mistake one for the other when authoring</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>As far as I know, in every UA on the planet b and strong are totally interchangeable, i.e. in practice they have the same semantics.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#8217;s incorrect.  <a href="http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=newscache%242uci8h%24itu1%241%40server-0.office-0.foraynewmedia">There are a number of search engines that weight keywords found within &lt;strong&gt; elements heavier than keywords found within &lt;b&gt; elements</a>.  Why wouldn&#8217;t they?</p>
<p>Of course, even if no user-agent on the planet distinguished between them, that&#8217;s no excuse to mistake one for the other when authoring</p>
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		<title>By: jgraham</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-757</link>
		<dc:creator>jgraham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2004 08:39:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-757</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The fact that most browsers render it in a bold face is incidental. With a screen reader, the difference &lt;strong&gt;could&lt;/strong&gt; be very noticeable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(emphasis mine)

It&#039;s the difference between &quot;could be&quot; and &quot;is&quot; that&#039;s interests me. Are there any UAs that &lt;em&gt;actually&lt;/em&gt; treat the elements differently? If not, in what sense do they have different semantics? Now I agree that one should use &lt;code&gt;strong&lt;/code&gt; where one means strong emphasis since there &lt;em&gt;might&lt;/em&gt; be some UA that makes some tiny distinction between the two. I&#039;m just noting that in the &quot;real world&quot; every UA I&#039;ve ever encountered handles &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; just like  &lt;code&gt;strong&lt;/code&gt; and so the idea that &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; is just like &lt;code&gt;span&lt;/code&gt; except when rendered by a visual UA without stylesheets is inaccurate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The fact that most browsers render it in a bold face is incidental. With a screen reader, the difference <strong>could</strong> be very noticeable.</p></blockquote>
<p>(emphasis mine)</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the difference between &#8220;could be&#8221; and &#8220;is&#8221; that&#8217;s interests me. Are there any UAs that <em>actually</em> treat the elements differently? If not, in what sense do they have different semantics? Now I agree that one should use <code>strong</code> where one means strong emphasis since there <em>might</em> be some UA that makes some tiny distinction between the two. I&#8217;m just noting that in the &#8220;real world&#8221; every UA I&#8217;ve ever encountered handles <code>b</code> just like  <code>strong</code> and so the idea that <code>b</code> is just like <code>span</code> except when rendered by a visual UA without stylesheets is inaccurate.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommy Olsson</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-756</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommy Olsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Aug 2004 05:29:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-756</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
As far as I know, in every UA on the planet &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;strong&lt;/code&gt; are totally interchangeable, i.e. in practice they have the same semantics.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Not really. &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; has no semantics, it only hints that its content should be rendered in a bold face, without any explanation why. &lt;code&gt;strong&lt;/code&gt; on the other hand, says that its content should be strongly emphasised. The fact that most browsers render it in a bold face is incidental. With a screen reader, the difference could be very noticeable.

I&#039;m not going to argue against Eric&#039;s use of &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt;. It&#039;s probably a good thing to do, since he wants the date to be boldfaced (not emphasised) when style sheets are off. Having said that, I would probably have gone with a &lt;code&gt;span&lt;/code&gt;, but that&#039;s just because of personal preference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
As far as I know, in every UA on the planet <code>b</code> and <code>strong</code> are totally interchangeable, i.e. in practice they have the same semantics.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Not really. <code>b</code> has no semantics, it only hints that its content should be rendered in a bold face, without any explanation why. <code>strong</code> on the other hand, says that its content should be strongly emphasised. The fact that most browsers render it in a bold face is incidental. With a screen reader, the difference could be very noticeable.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not going to argue against Eric&#8217;s use of <code>b</code>. It&#8217;s probably a good thing to do, since he wants the date to be boldfaced (not emphasised) when style sheets are off. Having said that, I would probably have gone with a <code>span</code>, but that&#8217;s just because of personal preference.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-755</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-755</guid>
		<description>Just some followup on questions posed and comments made.

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-739&quot;&gt;
Are b, u, i, etc. going away in future version of XHTML? (Jeff Croft)
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t know.  There have been promises along those lines, as there have been promises to do away with the &lt;code&gt;style&lt;/code&gt; attribute and &lt;code&gt;h1&lt;/code&gt; through  &lt;code&gt;h6&lt;/code&gt;.  Time will tell.  In the meantime, if you&#039;re using current XHTML versions, or HTML for that matter, then &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; and its ilk will always be valid.  You only have to worry about their presence if you convert documents to a (hypothetical) future XML language that doesn&#039;t include such elements.  You could at that point either transform them to some other element, or strip them out entirely.

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-744&quot;&gt;
Surely your initial statements were made in haste, Eric? I can</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just some followup on questions posed and comments made.</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-739"><p>
Are b, u, i, etc. going away in future version of XHTML? (Jeff Croft)
</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t know.  There have been promises along those lines, as there have been promises to do away with the <code>style</code> attribute and <code>h1</code> through  <code>h6</code>.  Time will tell.  In the meantime, if you&#8217;re using current XHTML versions, or HTML for that matter, then <code>b</code> and its ilk will always be valid.  You only have to worry about their presence if you convert documents to a (hypothetical) future XML language that doesn&#8217;t include such elements.  You could at that point either transform them to some other element, or strip them out entirely.</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-744"><p>
Surely your initial statements were made in haste, Eric? I can</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: jgraham</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-752</link>
		<dc:creator>jgraham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 21:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-752</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I disagree entirely. span has no more semantic purity than b, in my view. Both are intended for purely presentational effects. Neither adds anything to the document</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I disagree entirely. span has no more semantic purity than b, in my view. Both are intended for purely presentational effects. Neither adds anything to the document</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Laurens Holst</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-751</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurens Holst</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 19:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-751</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;And if I could get UTF-8 to work, I</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>And if I could get UTF-8 to work, I</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: mogsie</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-748</link>
		<dc:creator>mogsie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 18:10:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-748</guid>
		<description>Ok, Seth I might agree that using span is a better practice than b... Think of how we all would shudder at the thought of the css zen garden being tagged with b instead of span.  (The zen garden also illustrates Eric&#039;s point of span being purely presentational.)

Well, instead of using b or span, we might just use &lt;code&gt;&lt;h5&gt;&lt;meyer:date xmlns:meyer=&quot;http://www.meyerweb.com/mine/allmine&quot;&gt;Tuesday, 24 Augu...&lt;/code&gt; which we can all agree upon has the same semantic value as span: none.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, Seth I might agree that using span is a better practice than b&#8230; Think of how we all would shudder at the thought of the css zen garden being tagged with b instead of span.  (The zen garden also illustrates Eric&#8217;s point of span being purely presentational.)</p>
<p>Well, instead of using b or span, we might just use <code>&lt;h5&gt;&lt;meyer:date xmlns:meyer="http://www.meyerweb.com/mine/allmine"&gt;Tuesday, 24 Augu...</code> which we can all agree upon has the same semantic value as span: none.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Biagini</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-747</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Biagini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-747</guid>
		<description>How about using Markdown for comments, and not allowing markup at all?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about using Markdown for comments, and not allowing markup at all?</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Biagini</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-746</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Biagini</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-746</guid>
		<description>Amusing that their layout is mangled in Safari, but works in IE.

&lt;code&gt;&lt;p class=&quot;first&quot;&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, wrapped in a &lt;code&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, which, in turn, is wrapped in a &lt;code&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. Sweet. It expands with the text, so I guess that&#039;s kinda good...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amusing that their layout is mangled in Safari, but works in IE.</p>
<p><code>&lt;p class="first"&gt;</code>, wrapped in a <code>&lt;blockquote&gt;</code>, which, in turn, is wrapped in a <code>&lt;div&gt;</code>. Sweet. It expands with the text, so I guess that&#8217;s kinda good&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Thomas Rasmussen</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-744</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Thomas Rasmussen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 17:46:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-744</guid>
		<description>Mogsie, it&#039;s not simply about what&#039;s legal... that&#039;s such a simple approach. That&#039;s like when people justify being a jerk because they are allowed to. It&#039;s not about what&#039;s allowed, it&#039;s about what&#039;s a better practice. Not that I&#039;m criticizing Mr. Meyer&#039;s practices, just illustrating a point.

I&#039;m glad Jim addressed the problems with your statements comparing &lt;code&gt;b&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;span&lt;/code&gt;. Surely your initial statements were made in haste, Eric? I can&#039;t quite fathom how they might hold up under further scrutiny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mogsie, it&#8217;s not simply about what&#8217;s legal&#8230; that&#8217;s such a simple approach. That&#8217;s like when people justify being a jerk because they are allowed to. It&#8217;s not about what&#8217;s allowed, it&#8217;s about what&#8217;s a better practice. Not that I&#8217;m criticizing Mr. Meyer&#8217;s practices, just illustrating a point.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad Jim addressed the problems with your statements comparing <code>b</code> and <code>span</code>. Surely your initial statements were made in haste, Eric? I can&#8217;t quite fathom how they might hold up under further scrutiny.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-743</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 15:35:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-743</guid>
		<description>Hey, be sure to check out www.browsehappy.com. Interesting ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, be sure to check out <a href="http://www.browsehappy.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.browsehappy.com</a>. Interesting &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: dave</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-741</link>
		<dc:creator>dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Aug 2004 13:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comment-741</guid>
		<description>&quot;But a gzipped 10.5KB page is still smaller than a gzipped 10.4KB page. It will always be smaller.&quot;

Someone has already commented that you&#039;ve got the figures the wrong way round, but I dispute the fact that it will always be bigger/smaller whichever way you put the figures.

Just as a single color GIF with regular or no patterns can be both large in number of pixels, and smaller in number of bytes than one with complex patterns a web page with more repetition can be smaller when gzipped than a smaller one with less repetition.

I&#039;m just guessing but I think if you only use &#039;b&#039; tags for this purpose then you could actually be *adding* size to your compressed page compared with using &#039;span&#039;, and &#039;span class=&quot;whatever&quot;&#039; isn&#039;t going to add as much size as you think.

I vote for more characters in the name of clarity, as your reasoning reminds me too much of old-skool programmers still mentally stuck in the 80s who forget that humans are often the weakest link in the chain these days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;But a gzipped 10.5KB page is still smaller than a gzipped 10.4KB page. It will always be smaller.&#8221;</p>
<p>Someone has already commented that you&#8217;ve got the figures the wrong way round, but I dispute the fact that it will always be bigger/smaller whichever way you put the figures.</p>
<p>Just as a single color GIF with regular or no patterns can be both large in number of pixels, and smaller in number of bytes than one with complex patterns a web page with more repetition can be smaller when gzipped than a smaller one with less repetition.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just guessing but I think if you only use &#8216;b&#8217; tags for this purpose then you could actually be *adding* size to your compressed page compared with using &#8217;span&#8217;, and &#8217;span class=&#8221;whatever&#8221;&#8216; isn&#8217;t going to add as much size as you think.</p>
<p>I vote for more characters in the name of clarity, as your reasoning reminds me too much of old-skool programmers still mentally stuck in the 80s who forget that humans are often the weakest link in the chain these days.</p>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: More Markup">More Markup</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Tue 24 Aug 2004</li>
<li class="time">1613</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/css/" title="View all posts in CSS" rel="category tag">CSS</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/08/24/more-markup/#comments">26 responses</a></li>
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<p>
Okay, apparently <a href="/eric/thoughts/2004/08/23/markup-missive/" title="Markup Missive">that <em>wasn&#8217;t</em> the rest of the story</a>.  In part, that seems to be because I didn&#8217;t express what I was trying to say very clearly.  In others, it&#8217;s because people reminded me of points I should have made, or else brought up good points I didn&#8217;t address (or consider).  Time for some follow-up.
</p>
<p>
A few people said &#8220;who cares about three/six bytes?&#8221;  Me, obviously.  On many pages, such as the archived entry, it&#8217;s not going to be a big deal.  On the home page, it will be a slightly bigger deal.  On a monthly archive page, it&#8217;s common to see twenty or more dates on a single page.  There we start to measure weight reductions in tenths of a kilobyte.  If I take a similar approach in five other cases, that&#8217;s half a kilobyte.  It adds up over time, especially when you get several hundred thousand page views a month.  The difference is even more fractional when using gzip encoding, as I am.  But a gzipped 10.4KB page is still smaller than a gzipped 10.5KB page.  It will always be smaller.  Why not take the improvement, if nothing else is harmed?  (As I believe to be the case here, although obviously not everyone agrees.)
</p>
<p>
The most common objection to what I wrote is that using <code>b</code> violates &#8220;semantic purity&#8221;.  I disagree entirely.  <code>span</code> has no more semantic purity than <code>b</code>, in my view.  Both are intended for purely presentational effects.  Neither adds anything to the document&#8217;s semantics in a fashion that, for example, <code>strong</code> does.  So on those grounds, the choice is a wash; neither is any better than the other.  The only real difference between the two elements (besides their names) is that <code>b</code> has, mostly by tradition but also by way of <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/present/graphics.html#edef-B" title="HTML 4.01, section 15.2.1: Font style elements: the TT, I, B, BIG, SMALL, STRIKE, S, and U elements">description</a>, a default presentational rendering&mdash;the text uses a bold font face.
</p>
<p>
Which leads to the next point, one I forgot to make in the previous post (that&#8217;s what I get for writing entries late at night).  As I just said, if you use <code>b</code>, then in a view of the document free of author CSS, the text will be boldfaced.  That&#8217;s exactly what I want in this case; in a browser where an <code>h5</code> isn&#8217;t boldfaced by default, and there is no CSS being applied at all, I&#8217;d like the date to be boldfaced.  Why?  I just do.  Oh, sure, I could come up with a rationale like it being important to highlight the entry date in a weblog, but the reasons aren&#8217;t really relevant.  As the page author, those are the kinds of decisions I get to make.  So given that desire, <code>b</code> has another advantage over <code>span</code> <em>for the case I&#8217;m describing</em>.  In cases where you don&#8217;t want the text to be boldfaced in a rendering free of author CSS, then <code>b</code> is actually disadvantageous.  There will be inevitable complaints about presentational markup, but in a non-CSS environment, what other presentational influence can I have?  None.
</p>
<p>
It was also pointed out by a few people that I&#8217;m over-classing my markup, since I could easily use descendant selectors to get the same results.  That&#8217;s absolutely true.  The classes (<code>title</code> and <code>meta</code>) are more remnants of earlier designs, and have outlived their usefulness.  In the beginning, I used the classes because I thought I&#8217;d want to use sub-headings in journal entries, in order to break up long posts.  (<a href="http://www.designbyfire.com/">Andrei</a> does this quite a bit, as do some others.)  I wanted to be sure that the title and date styles applied only to those particular headings in an entry, and no others.  Since then, practice has shown that I never write entries with sub-headings, so the classes aren&#8217;t necessary, and in fact my CSS didn&#8217;t even need the classes to be there.  Thus, I&#8217;ve taken out the classes.  If I ever find myself wanting to break up an entry into headed sections, I&#8217;ll use <code>h6</code> to do it.  So thanks to those who held my feet to the fire on that point.
</p>
<p>
<a href="http://www.lachy.id.au/blogs/log/" title="Lachy's Log">Lachlan Hunt</a> <a href="http://www.lachy.id.au/blogs/log/2004/08/css-guru-explains-ause" title="CSS Guru Explains A&lt;b&gt;use">pointed out</a> that I could save a lot more weight by using UTF-8 characters instead of encoded character entities.  True.  And if I could get UTF-8 to work, I&#8217;d probably try do that, assuming I could be sure the content wouldn&#8217;t be mangled in current browsers, a worry I definitely don&#8217;t have when it comes to element handling.  Lachlan also mentioned that in a CSS3 world, I could use <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-content/#wrapping" title="CSS3 Generated and Replaced Content Module, section 4.3: Wrapping elements in pseudo-elements with '::outside'">the <code>::outside</code> pseudo-element</a> to generate another box for styling, instead of nesting one element inside another.  Yes, and in an <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/xbl/" title="XBL - XML Binding Language">XBL</a> world I could just generate the extra box(es).  Until either one or both of those worlds comes to pass, markup is the answer.  In this case, I prefer <code>b</code> to <code>span</code> for all the reasons mentioned earlier.
</p>
<p>
As you might suspect, anyone who doesn&#8217;t accept my earlier assertions about markup semantics isn&#8217;t going to agree with my markup choices.  I&#8217;ve no problem with that; note that I <em>never</em> said anything even remotely resembling &#8220;<code>b</code> is always better than <code>span</code>&#8220;.  It isn&#8217;t.  Neither is <code>span</code> always better than <code>b</code>, as I&#8217;ve discussed here and in the previous post.  By all means, if you have a deep-seated aversion to presentational elements, then don&#8217;t use them.  In my world, one avoids using them when a semantic element would better serve the intent.  When there is no semantic need, then I figure you should use whatever works best for you.  Knowing how to tell the difference between these cases is a big step toward really understanding how to use markup efficiently and well.
</p></div>

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<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

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