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	<title>Comments on: Unbreaking the Web</title>
	<atom:link href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Mika Jarvinen</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5969</link>
		<dc:creator>Mika Jarvinen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5969</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Legion 88&lt;/strong&gt;

Eric&#039;s Archived Though...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Legion 88<br />
</strong></p>
<p>Eric&#8217;s Archived Though&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mika Jarvinen</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5970</link>
		<dc:creator>Mika Jarvinen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jul 2005 00:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5970</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Legion 88&lt;/strong&gt;

Eric&#039;s Archived Though...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Legion 88<br />
</strong></p>
<p>Eric&#8217;s Archived Though&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: someone</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5355</link>
		<dc:creator>someone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Mar 2005 12:56:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5355</guid>
		<description>If they REALLY make it standards compliant it won&#039;t even break pages with &quot;hacks&quot;, it would render them as any other browser: properly.

M$ SHOULD be concerned about standards in their quest for world domination. More and more people dislike M$, authors for having to code twice (and debug 10 times too much) and users for having their systems compromized (again and again).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If they REALLY make it standards compliant it won&#8217;t even break pages with &#8220;hacks&#8221;, it would render them as any other browser: properly.</p>
<p>M$ SHOULD be concerned about standards in their quest for world domination. More and more people dislike M$, authors for having to code twice (and debug 10 times too much) and users for having their systems compromized (again and again).</p>
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		<title>By: Poncho</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5233</link>
		<dc:creator>Poncho</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Mar 2005 14:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5233</guid>
		<description>Eric,

Firstly I&#039;d like to thank you for being at the forefront of helping less-advanced web developers (like myself) to come to grips with standards in the real world. I had been building websites on and off since around &#039;96 using tables, spacer gifs and the like for layout. It was really very exciting to discover that CSS and semantic markup could finally be used to some effect. A very interesting article.

Personally I&#039;d like to see IE clean up it&#039;s act in regards to CSS regardless of the consequences. If I have to fix a few pages here and there to make them display the way I intended because of changes in IE&#039;s display engine, so be it.

Finally, I am looking forward to IE7 and all it&#039;s &#039;features&#039;/bugs.

Regards;
Poncho</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,</p>
<p>Firstly I&#8217;d like to thank you for being at the forefront of helping less-advanced web developers (like myself) to come to grips with standards in the real world. I had been building websites on and off since around &#8216;96 using tables, spacer gifs and the like for layout. It was really very exciting to discover that CSS and semantic markup could finally be used to some effect. A very interesting article.</p>
<p>Personally I&#8217;d like to see IE clean up it&#8217;s act in regards to CSS regardless of the consequences. If I have to fix a few pages here and there to make them display the way I intended because of changes in IE&#8217;s display engine, so be it.</p>
<p>Finally, I am looking forward to IE7 and all it&#8217;s &#8216;features&#8217;/bugs.</p>
<p>Regards;<br />
Poncho</p>
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		<title>By: Richard Rutter</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5026</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rutter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Feb 2005 13:52:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-5026</guid>
		<description>Mitchell said:

&lt;blockquote&gt;I just tested some pages with XHTML doctype-transitional, and when I remove that and revert from standard to quirks mode in IE 6, the box model is not fixed as you describe, and IE does seem to revert to the broken IE 5.5 box model. Please run a test and verify....I could be wrong on that.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Mitchell, I think you&#039;ve got the wrong end of the stick here. With IE6 in quirks mode, the box model deliberately remains broken compared with standards mode (it&#039;s kind of the point of quirks mode).

What &lt;strong&gt;has&lt;/strong&gt; been fixed in quirks mode is a bug which was exploited in the &#039;Box Model Hack&#039;, so-called because it was used to get around IE5&#039;s broken box model. It is this bug to which Eric was referring - because the bug the hack depended on is now fixed, the hack no longer works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mitchell said:</p>
<blockquote><p>I just tested some pages with XHTML doctype-transitional, and when I remove that and revert from standard to quirks mode in IE 6, the box model is not fixed as you describe, and IE does seem to revert to the broken IE 5.5 box model. Please run a test and verify&#8230;.I could be wrong on that.</p></blockquote>
<p>Mitchell, I think you&#8217;ve got the wrong end of the stick here. With IE6 in quirks mode, the box model deliberately remains broken compared with standards mode (it&#8217;s kind of the point of quirks mode).</p>
<p>What <strong>has</strong> been fixed in quirks mode is a bug which was exploited in the &#8216;Box Model Hack&#8217;, so-called because it was used to get around IE5&#8217;s broken box model. It is this bug to which Eric was referring &#8211; because the bug the hack depended on is now fixed, the hack no longer works.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Brainard</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-4280</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Brainard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-4280</guid>
		<description>The real reason that Microsoft doesn&#039;t want to fix IE is because they dropped out of the standards groups and they have other plans with IE 7 in Longhorn. The IE 6 team most likely isn&#039;t even allowed to make updated changes to IE 6, they are only allowed to fix security bugs. They aren&#039;t worried because they figure that they are the standard and that with the next version of IE everyone will want to switch to their standards. If you look at the dev site where Microsoft shows you videos of Longhorn you can see that they are integrating all this junk into IE 7. What they didn&#039;t expect was Firefox and that is going to screw up their plans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real reason that Microsoft doesn&#8217;t want to fix IE is because they dropped out of the standards groups and they have other plans with IE 7 in Longhorn. The IE 6 team most likely isn&#8217;t even allowed to make updated changes to IE 6, they are only allowed to fix security bugs. They aren&#8217;t worried because they figure that they are the standard and that with the next version of IE everyone will want to switch to their standards. If you look at the dev site where Microsoft shows you videos of Longhorn you can see that they are integrating all this junk into IE 7. What they didn&#8217;t expect was Firefox and that is going to screw up their plans.</p>
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		<title>By: Big</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2877</link>
		<dc:creator>Big</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Dec 2004 10:43:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2877</guid>
		<description>Why don&#039;t Microsoft cut there losses and come up with a partnership with Firefox or something!?

Everybody will be happy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why don&#8217;t Microsoft cut there losses and come up with a partnership with Firefox or something!?</p>
<p>Everybody will be happy!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2586</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Dec 2004 06:59:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2586</guid>
		<description>Eric did say that
&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;Eric Meyer&quot;&gt;So I fixed a few style sheets, tossed a hack out of my mental toolbox, and got on with my life.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I suppose he may have been refering to a mindset shift rather than a stylesheet change though.

I&#039;m also guessing that a new IE may be tripped up by an old hack and at the same time support the intended behavior. Admitedly a leap, but from past experience, not a large one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric did say that</p>
<blockquote cite="Eric Meyer"><p>So I fixed a few style sheets, tossed a hack out of my mental toolbox, and got on with my life.</p></blockquote>
<p>I suppose he may have been refering to a mindset shift rather than a stylesheet change though.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also guessing that a new IE may be tripped up by an old hack and at the same time support the intended behavior. Admitedly a leap, but from past experience, not a large one.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitchell</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2583</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitchell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2004 23:44:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2583</guid>
		<description>Hi Eric, I agree with most of what you say. I especially agree on the IE Development Team moving forward with standards. Once thats done, game over. In fact, I did read that the IE team did me this past summer and that its likely that IE 7 (which as I understand it, wont be released till possibly 2006 with Longhorn/Avalon) will support web standards. Who knows, though. If thye do, I expect they will still maintain some kind of &quot;multi-level&quot; standards support in the agent, where, depending on type of doctype, absence of, etc., the browser will display a certain way and revert to some kind of older version or mode. Im sure this will translate into support for XHTML 1.1-2, CSS 3, and then quirksmode and transitional docs supporting the old IE 6 way, and maybe a third mode. Again, who knows, but that seems like a likely scenario. Overall, I think its likely they will not drop the ball on standards though when IE 7 is released, but it is likely that IE 7, because its the FIRST MS release of a standards-based agent, may have some short-comings. (just look at Safari and Opera!). So, some problems I expect for some years ahead. We all will still have to hack for IE 6 and its problems after 2006 and IE7, as has occurred with IE 5.5, which is dying a very slow death it appears. So, again, prepare for hacks and fixes in IE for some years to come. For example, the non-support of min-height in IE 6 will be a thorn in our sides for some years to come, it appears, based on the long lag of continued browser popularity and use world-wide I would expect for that browser, even after IE 7&#039;s release. Thats sad, but I guess reality.

Incidentally, you guys can login and post comments to the IE team at channel9.msdn.com - Microsoft&#039;s attempt to open up development of future releases much like Linux and Mozilla have done - and leave your opinions about IE if you like to the developers.

But, I think when the move happens, it wont be for some time, and there will be some minor shuffling of site code when it does, depending on your personal hacking strategy. I started applying styles for IE 6, then hacks for Mozilla. Ive since reversed that practice, and I think as long as your hacks and fixes apply to IE 6 in your code, you will be ahead opf the game. I know for one, I do use the child selector rule to separate IE ffrom Mozilla at times, and once or if thats &quot;fixed&quot; in IE, if they miss a standard, so will my code. Otherwise, if the hack and property works, we are all good to go with no changes. But like you say, browsers have been evolving since the 90&#039;s, so there really is no argument in any form about worrying about breaking web sites. Especially with the standards/quirksmode design IE now carries. They are giving us as much flexibility as possible and Im sure will build on that concept in future versions.

Lastly, I could be wrong on this Eric, but I just tested some pages with XHTML doctype-transitional, and when I remove that and revert from standard to quirks mode in IE 6, the box model is not fixed as you describe, and IE does seem to revert to the broken IE 5.5 box model. Please run a test and verify....I could be wrong on that.

Thanks for the great body of work!

-Mitchell www.stormdetector.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Eric, I agree with most of what you say. I especially agree on the IE Development Team moving forward with standards. Once thats done, game over. In fact, I did read that the IE team did me this past summer and that its likely that IE 7 (which as I understand it, wont be released till possibly 2006 with Longhorn/Avalon) will support web standards. Who knows, though. If thye do, I expect they will still maintain some kind of &#8220;multi-level&#8221; standards support in the agent, where, depending on type of doctype, absence of, etc., the browser will display a certain way and revert to some kind of older version or mode. Im sure this will translate into support for XHTML 1.1-2, CSS 3, and then quirksmode and transitional docs supporting the old IE 6 way, and maybe a third mode. Again, who knows, but that seems like a likely scenario. Overall, I think its likely they will not drop the ball on standards though when IE 7 is released, but it is likely that IE 7, because its the FIRST MS release of a standards-based agent, may have some short-comings. (just look at Safari and Opera!). So, some problems I expect for some years ahead. We all will still have to hack for IE 6 and its problems after 2006 and IE7, as has occurred with IE 5.5, which is dying a very slow death it appears. So, again, prepare for hacks and fixes in IE for some years to come. For example, the non-support of min-height in IE 6 will be a thorn in our sides for some years to come, it appears, based on the long lag of continued browser popularity and use world-wide I would expect for that browser, even after IE 7&#8217;s release. Thats sad, but I guess reality.</p>
<p>Incidentally, you guys can login and post comments to the IE team at channel9.msdn.com &#8211; Microsoft&#8217;s attempt to open up development of future releases much like Linux and Mozilla have done &#8211; and leave your opinions about IE if you like to the developers.</p>
<p>But, I think when the move happens, it wont be for some time, and there will be some minor shuffling of site code when it does, depending on your personal hacking strategy. I started applying styles for IE 6, then hacks for Mozilla. Ive since reversed that practice, and I think as long as your hacks and fixes apply to IE 6 in your code, you will be ahead opf the game. I know for one, I do use the child selector rule to separate IE ffrom Mozilla at times, and once or if thats &#8220;fixed&#8221; in IE, if they miss a standard, so will my code. Otherwise, if the hack and property works, we are all good to go with no changes. But like you say, browsers have been evolving since the 90&#8217;s, so there really is no argument in any form about worrying about breaking web sites. Especially with the standards/quirksmode design IE now carries. They are giving us as much flexibility as possible and Im sure will build on that concept in future versions.</p>
<p>Lastly, I could be wrong on this Eric, but I just tested some pages with XHTML doctype-transitional, and when I remove that and revert from standard to quirks mode in IE 6, the box model is not fixed as you describe, and IE does seem to revert to the broken IE 5.5 box model. Please run a test and verify&#8230;.I could be wrong on that.</p>
<p>Thanks for the great body of work!</p>
<p>-Mitchell <a href="http://www.stormdetector.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.stormdetector.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mordechai Peller</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2582</link>
		<dc:creator>Mordechai Peller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2004 23:39:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2582</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Microsoft cares about breaking sites on the Web. The reason they don&#039;t want to fix IE is because the feel it isn&#039;t in their own self interest to do so.

Fixing IE will do a few thing which Microsoft &lt;strong&gt;does&lt;/strong&gt; care about:

If they fix IE they would be admitting the current version of IE is broken. Microsoft still won&#039;t admit this, or at best, they downplay it.

If they fix IE they&#039;ll also need to fix all the tools which produce broken mark-up, such as FrontPage, Word, and Visual Studio.

Finally, if they fix IE they &lt;em&gt;may&lt;/em&gt; break some intranet sites. This Microsoft really does care about. Microsoft has downplayed Firefox&#039;s continuously increasing market share by saying how it still has the corporate inrtanet market cornered. The funny thing is that they are starting to loose marked share here, too, but it has nothing to do with IE at all. That&#039;s because they&#039;re starting to loose OS market share to Linux and Linux doesn&#039;t run IE (but it does run Firefox).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think Microsoft cares about breaking sites on the Web. The reason they don&#8217;t want to fix IE is because the feel it isn&#8217;t in their own self interest to do so.</p>
<p>Fixing IE will do a few thing which Microsoft <strong>does</strong> care about:</p>
<p>If they fix IE they would be admitting the current version of IE is broken. Microsoft still won&#8217;t admit this, or at best, they downplay it.</p>
<p>If they fix IE they&#8217;ll also need to fix all the tools which produce broken mark-up, such as FrontPage, Word, and Visual Studio.</p>
<p>Finally, if they fix IE they <em>may</em> break some intranet sites. This Microsoft really does care about. Microsoft has downplayed Firefox&#8217;s continuously increasing market share by saying how it still has the corporate inrtanet market cornered. The funny thing is that they are starting to loose marked share here, too, but it has nothing to do with IE at all. That&#8217;s because they&#8217;re starting to loose OS market share to Linux and Linux doesn&#8217;t run IE (but it does run Firefox).</p>
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		<title>By: Aankhen</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2577</link>
		<dc:creator>Aankhen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2004 15:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2577</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2445&quot;&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Good points. Except I don&#039;t think Microsoft should hold back support for child selectors just because a (relatively) small number of web authors use them as hacks. That would be very silly.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
IMO, that&#039;s not silly at all; the thing is to implement child selectors &lt;strong&gt;after&lt;/strong&gt; fixing all the other bugs. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2445">
<p>Good points. Except I don&#8217;t think Microsoft should hold back support for child selectors just because a (relatively) small number of web authors use them as hacks. That would be very silly.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>IMO, that&#8217;s not silly at all; the thing is to implement child selectors <strong>after</strong> fixing all the other bugs. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2570</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2004 09:20:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2570</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;Kevin&quot;&gt;If designers remove the old hacks, IE 5, 5.5, and 6 users will be greeted by the broken design that the designer was trying to avoid, but who can say whether a new version would fall to the hack or rise above it.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Why would you have to remove the old hacks? Are those versions going to disappear all of a sudden?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="Kevin"><p>If designers remove the old hacks, IE 5, 5.5, and 6 users will be greeted by the broken design that the designer was trying to avoid, but who can say whether a new version would fall to the hack or rise above it.</p></blockquote>
<p>Why would you have to remove the old hacks? Are those versions going to disappear all of a sudden?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2566</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2004 08:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2566</guid>
		<description>Adding proper CSS 2.1 support to a new or upgraded or patched version of IE would only make designing more complicated. The new bugs that would undoubtedly be introducted would call for new hacks that may foul up older IEs. Plus, only users who upgrade will receive the added benefit. If designers remove the old hacks, IE 5, 5.5, and 6 users will be greeted by the broken design that the designer was trying to avoid, but who can say whether a new version would fall to the hack or rise above it. So, although I agree with Eric in adding CSS 2.1 support to IE, Gary Schare is right that it would &quot;break a lot of things.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adding proper CSS 2.1 support to a new or upgraded or patched version of IE would only make designing more complicated. The new bugs that would undoubtedly be introducted would call for new hacks that may foul up older IEs. Plus, only users who upgrade will receive the added benefit. If designers remove the old hacks, IE 5, 5.5, and 6 users will be greeted by the broken design that the designer was trying to avoid, but who can say whether a new version would fall to the hack or rise above it. So, although I agree with Eric in adding CSS 2.1 support to IE, Gary Schare is right that it would &#8220;break a lot of things.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Terry</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2546</link>
		<dc:creator>Terry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2004 22:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2546</guid>
		<description>IE has cost me and my clients lots of money in unwarranted development trying to cater to its bad support for standards. Imagine how much in total for all the standards designers. IE is indeed holding back the web and at this point I could care less if they fix it or not. At the rate things are going Firefox will rule the web pretty soon anyway. I operate a non-tech oriented site and in the past few months the browser share for Firefox and Mozilla has shot up to 18%. It was hovering around 1% about six months ago. Those numbers are nothing to sniff at. It means that a real revolution is occuring at the level of the average user. I say to Microsoft: put up or shut up! You have already been left in the dust!

Imagine, in say, a year&#039;s time when IE decides to release a patch supporting CSS2 and PNG. The real developers/designers as whole will probably say: &quot;Ya, so! Who the hell cares!&quot; The bulk of their visitors will have been surfing with Firefox for a long time by then anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IE has cost me and my clients lots of money in unwarranted development trying to cater to its bad support for standards. Imagine how much in total for all the standards designers. IE is indeed holding back the web and at this point I could care less if they fix it or not. At the rate things are going Firefox will rule the web pretty soon anyway. I operate a non-tech oriented site and in the past few months the browser share for Firefox and Mozilla has shot up to 18%. It was hovering around 1% about six months ago. Those numbers are nothing to sniff at. It means that a real revolution is occuring at the level of the average user. I say to Microsoft: put up or shut up! You have already been left in the dust!</p>
<p>Imagine, in say, a year&#8217;s time when IE decides to release a patch supporting CSS2 and PNG. The real developers/designers as whole will probably say: &#8220;Ya, so! Who the hell cares!&#8221; The bulk of their visitors will have been surfing with Firefox for a long time by then anyway.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
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		<title>By: Rikkert Koppes</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2479</link>
		<dc:creator>Rikkert Koppes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2004 10:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comment-2479</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/&quot;&gt;Now, there is one area where I think the IE team would have to be careful about adding support, and that</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/"><p>Now, there is one area where I think the IE team would have to be careful about adding support, and that</p></blockquote>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Unbreaking the Web">Unbreaking the Web</a></h3>
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<li class="date">Wed 1 Dec 2004</li>
<li class="time">1906</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/browsers/" title="View all posts in Browsers" rel="category tag">Browsers</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/css/" title="View all posts in CSS" rel="category tag">CSS</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/#comments">40 responses</a></li>
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<p>
While I was in Florida with my family visiting both sets of parents, Tristan Nitot published an article titled &#8220;<a href="http://standblog.org/blog/2004/11/27/93113842-how-microsoft-can-support-css2-without-breaking-the-web" title="How Microsoft can support CSS2 without breaking the Web">How Microsoft can support CSS2 without breaking the Web</a>&#8220;.  In it, Tristan points to a comment made by Gary Schare, Director of Windows Product Management at Microsoft, which was:
</p>
<blockquote cite="http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Windows_Exec_Talks_IE_Firefox/1100534022">
We could change the CSS support and many other standards elements within the browser rendering platform. But in doing so, we would also potentially  break a lot of things.
</blockquote>
<p class="quoteattrib">(from <a href="http://www.betanews.com/article/Microsoft_Windows_Exec_Talks_IE_Firefox/1100534022" title="Microsoft Windows Exec Talks IE, Firefox">Microsoft Windows Exec Talks IE, Firefox</a>)</p>

<p>
Tristan then goes on to refute this line of thinking.  Generally speaking, I&#8217;m entirely in agreement with him.  (As a disclaimer, Tristan and I worked together as members of the Netscape Standards Evangelism Team, and Tristan asked me for feedback on his article before it was published.)
</p>
<p>
Here&#8217;s the thing: in the Windows world, Explorer already significantly upgraded its standards support four different times.  The most recent such upgrade was called IE6.  That was the version that first added DOCTYPE switching to IE/Win.  At that time, there were a great many changes made to the standards support, nearly every one for the better.  For example, in standards mode, you could no longer throw around unitless numbers and have them interpreted as pixels, because that violated the CSS specification.  You couldn&#8217;t set a height or width for an inline non-replaced element, because that too was incorrect.  The interpretation of <code>font-size</code> keywords was changed to reflect the CSS specification instead of the HTML font-sizing regime.  The box model was altered to follow CSS instead of the old IE way.  In short, there was <a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnie60/html/cssenhancements.asp" title="CSS Enhancements in Internet Explorer 6">all kinds of stuff in there</a> that would &#8220;break a lot of things&#8221;.
</p>
<p>
The Web rather steadfastly declined to be broken.  Oh, sure, there were pages whose layout was altered&mdash;not many, thanks to the way DOCTYPE switching was implemented, but they were out there.  Anyone who was relying on the IE/Win way of doing things but used a DOCTYPE that triggered standards mode (say, for example, a HTML 4.01 Transitional DOCTYPE with URI) ended up with a &#8220;broken&#8221; page.  These problems were fixed by their authors, and that was that.  I remember a number of forum posts about how &#8220;IE6 broke my design&#8221;, and the posts that helped those authors address the problem.  In the case of old, unmaintained pages, they stayed broken, but odds are that next to nobody cared.  Regardless, it isn&#8217;t exactly a point of major concern on any radars I&#8217;ve seen in the last three years.
</p>
<p>
Furthermore, IE6 fixed a number of parsing bugs that existed in previous versions.  One of those was the bug on which Tantek &Ccedil;elik&#8217;s &#8220;<a href="http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/boxmodelhack.html">Box Model Hack</a>&#8221; depended.  However, the parsing bug was fixed in both quirks and standards modes, so the BMH utterly failed to work in IE6 no matter what DOCTYPE you used.  That actually did break quite a few layouts, if I remember correctly.  I also remember the day I discovered that they&#8217;d fixed the parsing bug in both standards and quirks modes.  I swore at my monitor for a moment, and then actually thought about it.  I realized that the inconvenience of removing a few CSS hacks, or at worst changing to different hacks, was a pittance to pay in comparison to the advances IE6 had made in terms of increased standards support.
</p>
<p>
So I fixed a few style sheets, tossed a hack out of my mental toolbox, and got on with my life.  I contend that exactly the same thing would happen if a service pack were to add increased standards support to IE.
</p>
<p>
This is particularly true given that most of what IE should add would be, well, additions.  As in, things that IE doesn&#8217;t even try to support now, and so almost nobody uses them.  Think generated content.  Think attribute selectors.  Think fixed positioning.  These are all things that, if they were added to IE, would break almost no pages at all.  In fact, they&#8217;d make a small number of pages work better in IE.
</p>
<p>
For that incredibly small number of pages that would break (for whatever value of &#8220;break&#8221; you care to name) with improved standards support in IE6, I&#8217;m willing to bet that nearly all of them would get fixed right away.  Why?  Because they would be pages maintained by authors who actually want to use standards and care about doing things right.
</p>
<p>
Now, there is one area where I think the IE team would have to be careful about adding support, and that&#8217;s selectors.  A lot of hide-from-IE CSS hacks these days are based on its failure to support the child selector; in fact, I use these a few places in the <a href="/eric/tools/s5/">S<sup>5</sup></a> style sheets.  It is possible that adding support for child selectors to IE6 would be more harmful than beneficial.  I say it&#8217;s possible because I don&#8217;t know.  Nobody does&mdash;but Microsoft of all organizations has the ability to find out, and to act accordingly.  They have the funding, the personnel, the skills, and the customer base.  As Tristan said:
</p>
<blockquote cite="http://standblog.org/blog/2004/11/27/93113842-how-microsoft-can-support-css2-without-breaking-the-web">
In its short, 2 1/2 year life, the Netscape Evangelism team helped  literally thousands of authors and administrators of web sites around the  world to improve their support for the W3C DOM and CSS Standards. If such a  small group with limited resources can help change the web, imagine what  Microsoft could do with its resources if it only tried.
</blockquote>
<p>
Indeed.
</p>
<p>
Granted, the net stands still for no one, not even Microsoft.  There have already been, and continue to be, efforts to graft better standards support onto IE despite itself:  projects like <a href="http://webfx.eae.net/dhtml/pngbehavior/pngbehavior.html" title="PNG Behavior">PNG transparency fixes</a>, <a href="http://www.xs4all.nl/~peterned/csshover.html" title="whatever:hover">whatever:hover</a>, and <a href="http://dean.edwards.name/ie7/" title="IE7">IE7</a> take Microsoft&#8217;s proprietary behaviors and use them to make it easier to use open standards.  (I adore the poetry of that.)  The people behind those projects are already doing what Microsoft is apparently afraid to do, and they demonstrate why improving standards does not mean breaking the Web.
</p>
<p>
There&#8217;s one other point to consider.  If IE/Win improved its standards support in any meaningful way, believe me when I say that the news would be shouted from the Web site of every standards advocate in the known universe.  Nobody responsible for standards-oriented pages could avoid hearing about it.  Any problems would be quickly explained, and adjustments made.  Life would not only go on, but be better for developers and designers.
</p>
<p>
To sum up: the &#8220;more standards will break stuff&#8221; argument just doesn&#8217;t fly any more.  Microsoft can figure out what to do that won&#8217;t break pages, and there&#8217;s a ton of things that are new-to-IE, the implementation of which will no more break pages than did the image toolbar.  In cases that might cause breakage, Microsoft can determine&mdash;with community help, if they were to ask for it&mdash;how to minimize breakage while maximizing benefit.  To claim that possible Web page breakage prevents Microsoft from increasing standards support makes about as much sense as to claim that possible program breakage prevents them from ever changing or improving their operating system.
</p>
<p>
Despite this, I don&#8217;t have  much hope that we&#8217;ll see any improvements before Longhorn debuts.  I think that&#8217;s a shame, because I remember when the IE team was gung-ho about standards.  There were a number of very smart people who understood why standards were important, and were committed to doing their best to support standards in IE&mdash;not just on the Macintosh, but for Windows as well.
</p>
<p>
I do hope for Microsoft&#8217;s sake that those days return.  Because the Web continues to move, and if they just stand there promising that everything will be better in Longhorn, they may well find themselves left behind.
</p></div>

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