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	<title>Comments on: Exploring Better Standards Support</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Jane Jolin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-6361</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Jolin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Sep 2005 16:33:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-6361</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very excited about IE7 new CSS improvements as I just finished a design theme for csszengarden.com 
You can have a look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.celebrityblog.net/zengarden/zengarden-sample.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Zen Garden Sample Theme Design&lt;/a&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very excited about IE7 new CSS improvements as I just finished a design theme for csszengarden.com<br />
You can have a look at <a href="http://www.celebrityblog.net/zengarden/zengarden-sample.htm" rel="nofollow">Zen Garden Sample Theme Design</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brian Sexton</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5605</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian Sexton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 May 2005 09:14:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5605</guid>
		<description>Oddly enough, Internet Explorer 6 does handle the flow of images with &quot;display: inline-block&quot; fairly well.

How about an inline-block bounty for Mozilla developers?  Perhaps what it will take to get it working is cold, hard cash.  Should we post a site and take up a collection?  I would throw a few bills into the pot for that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oddly enough, Internet Explorer 6 does handle the flow of images with &quot;display: inline-block&quot; fairly well.</p>
<p>How about an inline-block bounty for Mozilla developers?  Perhaps what it will take to get it working is cold, hard cash.  Should we post a site and take up a collection?  I would throw a few bills into the pot for that one.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Solecki</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5492</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Solecki</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:35:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5492</guid>
		<description>A quick comment for my first ever post here. As a small time web developer all I care about is being able to write code and know that it looks the same in all browsers. I think the main things I have to do are the clearfix on floating divs and the box model hacks for IE. Maybe just get developers working on the different browsers to sit down together, look at all these hacks people have to put in and sort themselves out. But that&#039;s never going to happen is it :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick comment for my first ever post here. As a small time web developer all I care about is being able to write code and know that it looks the same in all browsers. I think the main things I have to do are the clearfix on floating divs and the box model hacks for IE. Maybe just get developers working on the different browsers to sit down together, look at all these hacks people have to put in and sort themselves out. But that&#8217;s never going to happen is it :)</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam Messinger</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5478</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Messinger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Apr 2005 01:15:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5478</guid>
		<description>One big thing that we need to have, which I don&#039;t see anyone mentioning, is the ability to run IE 5, 5.5, 6, and 7 on the same Windows computer for testing purposes.

We can do this now with 5 thru 6 thanks to the efforts of some community members. If IE 7 insists on crowding out all previous versions, however, testing becomes much harder. The problem is, I can also see a very good security-based argument for &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; allowing older versions to run.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One big thing that we need to have, which I don&#8217;t see anyone mentioning, is the ability to run IE 5, 5.5, 6, and 7 on the same Windows computer for testing purposes.</p>
<p>We can do this now with 5 thru 6 thanks to the efforts of some community members. If IE 7 insists on crowding out all previous versions, however, testing becomes much harder. The problem is, I can also see a very good security-based argument for <em>not</em> allowing older versions to run.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5468</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Apr 2005 07:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5468</guid>
		<description>I think cleaning up what&#039;s already &quot;implemented&quot; is needed more then implementing &quot;new&quot; things.  Don&#039;t get me wrong, I want to see CSS3 selectors and I especially want to see .png transparency, but I think getting what they have wrong on track with the rest of the browsers is more important for our collective sanity.

But why would they do that?  If a page &quot;breaks&quot; in everything but IE because it&#039;s coded using standards, it looks bad on the designer&#039;s part to everyone but other designers.  I hope I&#039;m wrong, but I don&#039;t see this as a being a negative in M$&#039;s eyes.

-adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think cleaning up what&#8217;s already &#8220;implemented&#8221; is needed more then implementing &#8220;new&#8221; things.  Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I want to see CSS3 selectors and I especially want to see .png transparency, but I think getting what they have wrong on track with the rest of the browsers is more important for our collective sanity.</p>
<p>But why would they do that?  If a page &#8220;breaks&#8221; in everything but IE because it&#8217;s coded using standards, it looks bad on the designer&#8217;s part to everyone but other designers.  I hope I&#8217;m wrong, but I don&#8217;t see this as a being a negative in M$&#8217;s eyes.</p>
<p>-adam</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5413</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 Apr 2005 12:22:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5413</guid>
		<description>I like the idea of having a similar priorties list featured at WaSP. WaSP represents designers and developers at a very high level (one step below the W3C, in my opinion) and a list similar to Erics would send a very real message about what we want. Mr. Wilson did ask for specifics and a unified message coming from the WaSP would be most powerful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the idea of having a similar priorties list featured at WaSP. WaSP represents designers and developers at a very high level (one step below the W3C, in my opinion) and a list similar to Erics would send a very real message about what we want. Mr. Wilson did ask for specifics and a unified message coming from the WaSP would be most powerful.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: PurplePenny</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5397</link>
		<dc:creator>PurplePenny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5397</guid>
		<description>Joel, I don&#039;t agree that &quot;The general public does care, however, that IE6 is wide open to malware attacks even after SP2.&quot;. 

In my experience most neither know nor care about security; those that do know (because they&#039;ve had to take their PCs back to the shop/call in &quot;a guy who advertises in the newsagent&#039;s window&quot;) still don&#039;t care.  They carry on without virus/malware/spyware protection.  The best that most of them can manage is that they install whatever AV the shop/the guy sold them then they forget about it; updates? what are they?. 

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel, I don&#8217;t agree that &#8220;The general public does care, however, that IE6 is wide open to malware attacks even after SP2.&#8221;. </p>
<p>In my experience most neither know nor care about security; those that do know (because they&#8217;ve had to take their PCs back to the shop/call in &#8220;a guy who advertises in the newsagent&#8217;s window&#8221;) still don&#8217;t care.  They carry on without virus/malware/spyware protection.  The best that most of them can manage is that they install whatever AV the shop/the guy sold them then they forget about it; updates? what are they?.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joel Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5385</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2005 16:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5385</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If Firefox, Opera and others can get most of css to work why the hell can&quot;t Microsoft (the RICHEST, LARGEST company in the WORLD).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

1. Microsoft is not the biggest corporation in the world, and is arguably not the richest.

2. Despite being offered for free, Internet Explorer is not (and never was) an altruistic endeavor. Internet Explorer is part of the Windows platform, and serves as a base for Microsoft technologies.

3. Firefox, Opera, and Safari operate on different business models than IE.

4. Designing and writing a fully CSS2.1-compliant browser is an extremely complicated and expensive project (and may be impossible, since no standard that complex is without contradiction and ambiguity), even if restricted to perfectly-formed XHTML.

5. The only people who even notice CSS errors are web developers. Normal users can&#039;t tell the difference between a webpage that looks bad in IE because of a box model error and a webpage that was designed for IE and so looks bad in Firefox.

6. Microsoft and the IE Team have plenty of other things to be doing right now. (Longhorn and IE Security, respectively)


&lt;blockquote&gt;There&quot;s NO excuse&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I just thought of six, off the top of my head. Want me to try for seven?


&lt;blockquote&gt;Microsoft is just a bunch of money hungry, greedy slackers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
...as opposed to the feature-hungry, greedy slackers like us, who whine in blog comments?

This isn&#039;t really the place for moral outrage...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If Firefox, Opera and others can get most of css to work why the hell can&#8221;t Microsoft (the RICHEST, LARGEST company in the WORLD).</p></blockquote>
<p>1. Microsoft is not the biggest corporation in the world, and is arguably not the richest.</p>
<p>2. Despite being offered for free, Internet Explorer is not (and never was) an altruistic endeavor. Internet Explorer is part of the Windows platform, and serves as a base for Microsoft technologies.</p>
<p>3. Firefox, Opera, and Safari operate on different business models than IE.</p>
<p>4. Designing and writing a fully CSS2.1-compliant browser is an extremely complicated and expensive project (and may be impossible, since no standard that complex is without contradiction and ambiguity), even if restricted to perfectly-formed XHTML.</p>
<p>5. The only people who even notice CSS errors are web developers. Normal users can&#8217;t tell the difference between a webpage that looks bad in IE because of a box model error and a webpage that was designed for IE and so looks bad in Firefox.</p>
<p>6. Microsoft and the IE Team have plenty of other things to be doing right now. (Longhorn and IE Security, respectively)</p>
<blockquote><p>There&#8221;s NO excuse</p></blockquote>
<p>I just thought of six, off the top of my head. Want me to try for seven?</p>
<blockquote><p>Microsoft is just a bunch of money hungry, greedy slackers.</p></blockquote>
<p>&#8230;as opposed to the feature-hungry, greedy slackers like us, who whine in blog comments?</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t really the place for moral outrage&#8230;</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5382</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Mar 2005 04:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5382</guid>
		<description>If Firefox, Opera and others can get most of css to work why the hell can&#039;t Microsoft (the RICHEST, LARGEST company in the WORLD). There&#039;s NO excuse. Are they too proud to ask the Mozilla team or the Opera team for some help? Just fix it. I&#039;m sure they pay their employees very well so is it management who&#039;s not getting their employees to work or what? Microsoft is just a bunch of money hungry, greedy slackers. Fix the damn browser, this is ridiculous..Like I said, if others like Firefox can get css to work then so can Microsoft..end of story...period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Firefox, Opera and others can get most of css to work why the hell can&#8217;t Microsoft (the RICHEST, LARGEST company in the WORLD). There&#8217;s NO excuse. Are they too proud to ask the Mozilla team or the Opera team for some help? Just fix it. I&#8217;m sure they pay their employees very well so is it management who&#8217;s not getting their employees to work or what? Microsoft is just a bunch of money hungry, greedy slackers. Fix the damn browser, this is ridiculous..Like I said, if others like Firefox can get css to work then so can Microsoft..end of story&#8230;period.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Aleksandar</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5380</link>
		<dc:creator>Aleksandar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2005 13:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5380</guid>
		<description>Eric, isn&#039;t point 6 already included in point 1? Am I wrong or you just wanted to emphasize it a bit?

Point 1 (and 6) is my main wish too.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, isn&#8217;t point 6 already included in point 1? Am I wrong or you just wanted to emphasize it a bit?</p>
<p>Point 1 (and 6) is my main wish too.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel Bernstein</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5379</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel Bernstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2005 01:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5379</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Out of curiousity, what does microsoft get from maintaining it&quot;s own rendering engine?&lt;/blockquote&gt;An embedded platform for ActiveX, .NET Controls, and Xaml, which is basically the same thing they get for maintaining a browser at all.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I think the past few years have proven that an enormous amount of ill-will can be generated from a poorly implemented one.&lt;/blockquote&gt;They&#039;re Microsoft; the ill-will is hardly going to go away just because they implement some 5 year old standards. In fact, other than a couple of whiny web developers like us (who even now don&#039;t dare drop IE support in any major project), nobody gives two craps if IE meets W3C standards.

The general public &lt;em&gt;does&lt;/em&gt; care, however, that IE6 is wide open to malware attacks even after SP2.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, I don&quot;t understand this question I&quot;m supposed to answer “What color is an orange?” I gave the correct answer (living next to an orange grove) and I was not able to submit.

The question should be changed to “What color is an American orange after it is chemically treated and coated with polymer resin?”&lt;/blockquote&gt;Since the color &quot;orange&quot; is defined as &quot;the color that oranges are&quot; (just like &quot;violet&quot; and &quot;periwinkle&quot; are the colors violets and periwinkles are, respectively), oranges are orange, no matter what color they are .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Out of curiousity, what does microsoft get from maintaining it&#8221;s own rendering engine?</p></blockquote>
<p>An embedded platform for ActiveX, .NET Controls, and Xaml, which is basically the same thing they get for maintaining a browser at all.</p>
<blockquote><p>I think the past few years have proven that an enormous amount of ill-will can be generated from a poorly implemented one.</p></blockquote>
<p>They&#8217;re Microsoft; the ill-will is hardly going to go away just because they implement some 5 year old standards. In fact, other than a couple of whiny web developers like us (who even now don&#8217;t dare drop IE support in any major project), nobody gives two craps if IE meets W3C standards.</p>
<p>The general public <em>does</em> care, however, that IE6 is wide open to malware attacks even after SP2.</p>
<blockquote><p>Also, I don&#8221;t understand this question I&#8221;m supposed to answer “What color is an orange?” I gave the correct answer (living next to an orange grove) and I was not able to submit.</p>
<p>The question should be changed to “What color is an American orange after it is chemically treated and coated with polymer resin?”</p></blockquote>
<p>Since the color &#8220;orange&#8221; is defined as &#8220;the color that oranges are&#8221; (just like &#8220;violet&#8221; and &#8220;periwinkle&#8221; are the colors violets and periwinkles are, respectively), oranges are orange, no matter what color they are .</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Gary Love</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5378</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:53:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5378</guid>
		<description>Out of curiousity, what does microsoft get from maintaining it&#039;s own rendering engine?  I think the past few years have proven that an enormous amount of ill-will can be generated from a poorly implemented one.  While, they must be looking at their future, which consists of never-ending bug-fixes and updates.  All for an app that doesn&#039;t generate a dime as a standalone product.

Apple piggy-backed on KHTML...why wouldn&#039;t Microsoft piggy-back on Gecko?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of curiousity, what does microsoft get from maintaining it&#8217;s own rendering engine?  I think the past few years have proven that an enormous amount of ill-will can be generated from a poorly implemented one.  While, they must be looking at their future, which consists of never-ending bug-fixes and updates.  All for an app that doesn&#8217;t generate a dime as a standalone product.</p>
<p>Apple piggy-backed on KHTML&#8230;why wouldn&#8217;t Microsoft piggy-back on Gecko?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gareth</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5376</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Mar 2005 00:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5376</guid>
		<description>I would add updated MIME type recognition and support for XML prologues in standards mode, and better support for things like XSLT, XLinks, XPointers, and XInclude. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would add updated MIME type recognition and support for XML prologues in standards mode, and better support for things like XSLT, XLinks, XPointers, and XInclude.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon Cox</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5372</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Mar 2005 06:21:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5372</guid>
		<description>dotted = dotted, not dashed.

Please, oh please.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dotted = dotted, not dashed.</p>
<p>Please, oh please.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Brett Merkey</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comment-5369</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Merkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Mar 2005 17:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/586/#comment-5369</guid>
		<description>Oh, yes, I forgot to mention... I used to work at a chemical factory on Neville Island near Pittsburgh that produced the petroleum-based product that coats oranges. 

Dirtiest plant I ever worked at...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, yes, I forgot to mention&#8230; I used to work at a chemical factory on Neville Island near Pittsburgh that produced the petroleum-based product that coats oranges. </p>
<p>Dirtiest plant I ever worked at&#8230;</p>
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<div class="entry">
<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Exploring Better Standards Support">Exploring Better Standards Support</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Mon 21 Mar 2005</li>
<li class="time">0828</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/browsers/" title="View all posts in Browsers" rel="category tag">Browsers</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2005/03/21/exploring-better-standards-support/#comments">44 responses</a></li>
<li></li><li></li></ul>

<div class="text">
<p>
While I was preparing for SXSW, Chris Wilson&#8212;and there&#8217;s a name that takes me back a few years&#8212;posted <a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/03/09/391362.aspx" title="IE and Standards">an entry</a> on <a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/" title="IEblog">IEblog</a> about standards.  I&#8217;m not going to excerpt any of it here because most of you have already read it.  For the rest of you, go read it.  As long as you don&#8217;t continue into the comments, it won&#8217;t take very long.
</p>
<p>
First off, let me say that I&#8217;ve known Chris for many years, and we get along great together.  I have a lot of respect for him, and I firmly believe the feeling is mutual.  He did incredible work in the very early years of CSS, and while some of that work may seem lacking when viewed in light of later implementations, it was that all-important first step on the journey of a thousand miles.  If I ever make it to Seattle with a couple of days to spare, he&#8217;s right near the top of a pretty short list of people I&#8217;d do my utmost to find time to see while I was there.  (I just added another person to that list a couple of days ago, actually, but that&#8217;s a story for another time.)
</p>
<p>
With a paragraph like that, you probably think I&#8217;m going to tear into him now.  Nope.
</p>
<p>
I&#8217;m posting my thoughts on this for three reasons.
</p>

<ol>
<li>Chris was nice enough to name-check meyerweb as a site that&#8217;s helped &#8220;[harvest] the collective knowledge of the web development community&#8221; with regard to standards.  If nominations were being taken, I&#8217;d point to the <a href="http://css-discuss.incutio.com/">css-discuss wiki</a> before I would meyerweb, but nevertheless I&#8217;d like to think I&#8217;ve earned a place on that list&#8212;and I&#8217;m glad that Chris thinks so too.</li>
<li>Some of my writing from the post &#8220;<a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/" title="Unbreaking the Web">Unbreaking the Web</a>&#8221; was quoted in <a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/03/09/391362.aspx#392448">a comment by Thomas Tallyce</a>.</li>
<li>The 800-pound gorilla is stirring.  It&#8217;s hard not to share a few observations.</li>
</ol>

<p>
So as Chris points out, the IE team faces an enormous challenge.  This is compounded by the enormous loss of IE developers over the past few years.  Think about it.  Would you work on a project that was the legal and administrative equivalent of a toxic cloud?  Internet Explorer is the focal point of dozens of lawsuits, antitrust litigation, and more.  It&#8217;s a project straitjacketed by its own success (however rightly or wrongly that success was achieved).  I don&#8217;t have any direct knowledge of this, but the IE team has probably become the <i>Marie Celeste</i> of Microsoft, a doomed wanderer of the bureaucratic seas, staffed by a few trapped souls and the subject of whispered tales of horror among the engineers.
</p>
<p>
( &#8220;And there&#8230; dangling from the door handle&#8230; <em>was a scripting hook!</em>&#8221; )
</p>
<p>
Despite this recent legacy of pariahship, it would seem that resources are gathering behind Explorer, and not just on the security front.  Chris says, and I have no reason to doubt him, that plans are afoot to add standards support to Explorer.  My concern is over the fate of those plans, because the best-laid plans&#8230; you know.  No matter how much the engineering team might want something, if their irresistible geek force encounters an immovable administrative object, well, my money&#8217;s on the object.  The only hope is to interpret the object as damage and route around it, which is usually a lot harder to accomplish in a bureaucracy than it is in a network topology.
</p>
<p>
Chris&#8217; post makes it very clear that backwards compatibility will not be sacrificed, at least in quirks mode.  I wrote some thoughts along those lines in &#8220;<a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/01/unbreaking-the-web/" title="Unbreaking the Web">Unbreaking the Web</a>&#8220;, so I won&#8217;t repeat them here.  In summary: improving standards support will not break the Web.  It won&#8217;t even break the vast majority of sites, and any sites that do break will get sorted out in short order.  With a public beta, those problems could be identified and solved well before the browser went final.  Backwards compatibility is no longer a reasonable excuse for avoiding standards support.
</p>
<p>
And then there are the resource limitations.  It&#8217;s hard to think of anything Microsoft does as lacking in resources, but just as there are hungry people in America, there are starving programs within Microsoft.  I believe that, for some time now, the IE project has been living on a sub-subsistence diet.  It will probably be hard to attract people to help feed it.  The staffing requirements for regression testing alone would be daunting.  I don&#8217;t envy the IE managers their task&#8212;all the more so because no matter what they do, it won&#8217;t be enough for some people.  They&#8217;re going to get slammed.  Their only real choice is in trying to pick the things for which they&#8217;ll be slammed less.  If improving standards support in IE isn&#8217;t a corporate (or divisional) priority, they&#8217;re in for a world of hurt.  Which is why I sincerely hope they&#8217;re a priority.
</p>
<p>
But neither is that a complete excuse.  Working for a firm like Microsoft means taking on massive challenges, doing more than you thought possible with less than you should have available, pulling long hours and pounding your head against a wall in order to do the apparently impossible.  That&#8217;s part of the job description, and being there is pretty much a matter of choice.  I say this isn&#8217;t a complete excuse because, obviously, any given team can only accomplish so much.  It just isn&#8217;t a &#8220;get out of jail free&#8221; card.  If you&#8217;re going to tell us that standards are important and that support will be improved, it has to be a notable degree.  There has to be evidence that a lot of work went into adding a lot of useful things, and fixing a lot of old problems.  Again, this is because the promise was freely made, not because it&#8217;s what the Web Gods demand.
</p>
<p>
We all, and by that I mean &#8220;us Web designers and developers&#8221;, need to stay involved in this conversation.  It&#8217;s easy to post a few thoughts, assume that they&#8217;ve been ignored, and let things drift.  It&#8217;s also easy to assume that the entire IE team read your ideas and immediately agreed to every single last one of them because they&#8217;re so blindingly obviously critical, and then get completely enraged when they don&#8217;t show up in the final product.  I for one plan to keep an eye on this situation, and to think about ways I could help the IE team.
</p>
<p>
Because if I <em>truly</em> care about standards&#8212;and I do&#8212;then I owe the IE team as much as I&#8217;ve given to the teams working on Firefox, Safari, Opera, and all the rest.  We all do.  Whatever we would have done for the least of these our browsers in the name of advancing standards support, we owe the Explorer team no less.
</p>
<p>
Chris did ask for specific requests, so here are my top ten CSS requests in priority order:
</p>

<ol>
<li>Support all selectors&#8212;including CSS3 selectors, which I believe are stable enough to be implemented</li>
<li>Clean up positioning and add fixed positioning</li>
<li>Clean up floating/clearing</li>
<li>min-/max-width/height (got that?)</li>
<li>Fix problems with inline layout, especially the handling of top and bottom padding and margins on inline elements</li>
<li>Arbitrary-element hover</li>
<li>Focus styling for form elements</li>
<li>Better printing support, including better page-break control and page orientation</li>
<li>Support CSS table styling, including the table-centered <code>display</code> values</li>
<li>Support generated content</li>
</ol>

<p>
&#8230;plus the unranked but still very important &#8220;fix bugs! fix bugs! fix bugs!&#8221;.
</p>

<p>
Did I miss anything important, or under- or over-value anything, on that CSS list?  Let us know.
</p>
</div>

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<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

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