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	<title>Comments on: Praise IE, Go to Jail</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: vanni</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-36459</link>
		<dc:creator>vanni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jun 2006 23:29:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-36459</guid>
		<description>I am revisting this thread, because IE 7 is a pain! I spent a lot of time doing a css-only web site, that, frankly won&quot;t pay too much. I had it working and looking great on all browsers except IE6. But I thought, surely it will be fine in the new improved IE7. So off I went to a computer store to vist my project on IE7. And guess what. It&quot;s broken!! So much for IE. So my partner is making it work by using tables. As my co-worker pointed out... “there all kinds of new, feature rich sites still built with tables, because of IE and its way of rendering web pages” Question: if css can work in Safari, Firefox, Opera, ... why not in IE7??

Why is that browser so different?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am revisting this thread, because IE 7 is a pain! I spent a lot of time doing a css-only web site, that, frankly won&#8221;t pay too much. I had it working and looking great on all browsers except IE6. But I thought, surely it will be fine in the new improved IE7. So off I went to a computer store to vist my project on IE7. And guess what. It&#8221;s broken!! So much for IE. So my partner is making it work by using tables. As my co-worker pointed out&#8230; “there all kinds of new, feature rich sites still built with tables, because of IE and its way of rendering web pages” Question: if css can work in Safari, Firefox, Opera, &#8230; why not in IE7??</p>
<p>Why is that browser so different?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-34830</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 May 2006 03:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-34830</guid>
		<description>Sorry, can&#039;t stand my own typos - *hypocrisy* :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, can&#8217;t stand my own typos &#8211; *hypocrisy* :)</p>
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		<title>By: Seth</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-32648</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 May 2006 09:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-32648</guid>
		<description>I just wanted to say I appreciate that a hero of web standards is able to recognize and applaud positive developments in the field, even when it comes from the devil himself. 

In fact, IE7 is a significant improvement, although it still has a ways to go. But in this and in other areas Microsoft has, I think, shown  some good-faith effort to address the concerns of web designers, open source advocates, and compatibility issues. I won&#039;t go so far as to say that the corporation is doing so out of the &#039;goodness of its heart,&#039; but  the fact that they are paying some attention to non-enterprise users is encouraging. 

As an example, they give away the Visual Studio Express editions, which, although limited somewhat, are powerful and useful tools, especially for the price. Note also that they have hosted Terra Server for a number of years, which does not restrict the use of its images (which were obtained from government agencies, but served up at Microsoft&#039;s expense to the best of my knowledge). They have also allowed significant access to the live local (virtual earth) api, and has not (so far as I know) clamped down on creative usage of the service, in contrast to Google (which is still viewed by many as the &#039;good corporation&#039; in contrast to the &#039;evil-incarnate Microsoft&#039;).

My point is not to say that Microsoft is a warm, fuzzy uncle who is just completely misunderstood, but that we are often guilty of overlooking positive actions by people or groups we view in a negative light. I am guilty of such hypocisy myself, but I think we can all benefit from taking a step off the bandwagon and taking an unbiased appraisal of each new development - sometimes, we can be pleasantly surprised.

I wish to thank Eric for bringing IE improvements to my attention, and for reminding us that corporations do include regular people who genuinely care about what they do. And I would also say that when people such as Eric Meyers give credit where credit is due, this is likely to encourage more positive developments in the future. So, GO MICROSOFT!!!  . . . and those who can&#039;t see the logic in this perhaps don&#039;t WANT positive change . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just wanted to say I appreciate that a hero of web standards is able to recognize and applaud positive developments in the field, even when it comes from the devil himself. </p>
<p>In fact, IE7 is a significant improvement, although it still has a ways to go. But in this and in other areas Microsoft has, I think, shown  some good-faith effort to address the concerns of web designers, open source advocates, and compatibility issues. I won&#8217;t go so far as to say that the corporation is doing so out of the &#8216;goodness of its heart,&#8217; but  the fact that they are paying some attention to non-enterprise users is encouraging. </p>
<p>As an example, they give away the Visual Studio Express editions, which, although limited somewhat, are powerful and useful tools, especially for the price. Note also that they have hosted Terra Server for a number of years, which does not restrict the use of its images (which were obtained from government agencies, but served up at Microsoft&#8217;s expense to the best of my knowledge). They have also allowed significant access to the live local (virtual earth) api, and has not (so far as I know) clamped down on creative usage of the service, in contrast to Google (which is still viewed by many as the &#8216;good corporation&#8217; in contrast to the &#8216;evil-incarnate Microsoft&#8217;).</p>
<p>My point is not to say that Microsoft is a warm, fuzzy uncle who is just completely misunderstood, but that we are often guilty of overlooking positive actions by people or groups we view in a negative light. I am guilty of such hypocisy myself, but I think we can all benefit from taking a step off the bandwagon and taking an unbiased appraisal of each new development &#8211; sometimes, we can be pleasantly surprised.</p>
<p>I wish to thank Eric for bringing IE improvements to my attention, and for reminding us that corporations do include regular people who genuinely care about what they do. And I would also say that when people such as Eric Meyers give credit where credit is due, this is likely to encourage more positive developments in the future. So, GO MICROSOFT!!!  . . . and those who can&#8217;t see the logic in this perhaps don&#8217;t WANT positive change . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Pradeep Kumar</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-29542</link>
		<dc:creator>Pradeep Kumar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 May 2006 10:06:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-29542</guid>
		<description>Though IE7 is getting much better, I can still remember the days browsing and developing stuff with IE was a real pain. My trials with Netscape were not happy as it was too resource hungry. IE had a lesser memory footprint though it crashed a zillion times.

I am currently using firefox though it too hogs memory (I have used some &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pradeepkumar.net/2006/03/17/FirefoxTrimMemoryToSaveMemory.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;tricks &lt;/a&gt; to scale its memory usage). But I was impressed with firefox every other way. It was smaller install,clean and I was happy as a web developer that it respects standards much better. 

I am not sure whether firefox drove IE to fix its standards compliances issues. But if it has then kudos to Firefox. It has allowed the web to have a choice and allow bad kids like IE to grow up in a decent way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Though IE7 is getting much better, I can still remember the days browsing and developing stuff with IE was a real pain. My trials with Netscape were not happy as it was too resource hungry. IE had a lesser memory footprint though it crashed a zillion times.</p>
<p>I am currently using firefox though it too hogs memory (I have used some <a href="http://www.pradeepkumar.net/2006/03/17/FirefoxTrimMemoryToSaveMemory.aspx" rel="nofollow">tricks </a> to scale its memory usage). But I was impressed with firefox every other way. It was smaller install,clean and I was happy as a web developer that it respects standards much better. </p>
<p>I am not sure whether firefox drove IE to fix its standards compliances issues. But if it has then kudos to Firefox. It has allowed the web to have a choice and allow bad kids like IE to grow up in a decent way.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard York</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-25896</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard York</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 May 2006 03:19:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-25896</guid>
		<description>Eric, well said!  I couldn&#039;t agree more.  If there&#039;s anything I really truly loath it&#039;s blanket statements and generalizations. Hey it&#039;s like Doc Brown was always saying in the Back to the Future movies, &quot;Marty, You&#039;re just not thinking fourth dimensionally!&quot;  Great Scott!

I can identify with all the angst in the web development community for Microsoft though.  It has been *five* years, after all, but bashing Microsoft is a complete waste of engery.  Most people who indulge along those lines are thinking two-dimensionally, they blindly hate Microsoft and put little thought into all the beuracratic red tape and political battles that surely must go on internally there and the real people fighting those battles for the betterment of the web at large.  It&#039;s easier for these people to spam the IE Blog with &quot;Firefox rulz, down with M$&quot; than to actually form a deep coherent thought and consider how much effort the IE team has already made toward giving us something in the way of better standards support.. . er .. wait...  it&#039;s another blanket statement!  .. the circle is complete... ah, what am I saying,  who knows *what* they&#039;re thinking!  

Personally, I&#039;m just thrilled that we&#039;re *finally* getting a new Explorer and I can&#039;t wait till IE6 has gone the way of the dodo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, well said!  I couldn&#8217;t agree more.  If there&#8217;s anything I really truly loath it&#8217;s blanket statements and generalizations. Hey it&#8217;s like Doc Brown was always saying in the Back to the Future movies, &#8220;Marty, You&#8217;re just not thinking fourth dimensionally!&#8221;  Great Scott!</p>
<p>I can identify with all the angst in the web development community for Microsoft though.  It has been *five* years, after all, but bashing Microsoft is a complete waste of engery.  Most people who indulge along those lines are thinking two-dimensionally, they blindly hate Microsoft and put little thought into all the beuracratic red tape and political battles that surely must go on internally there and the real people fighting those battles for the betterment of the web at large.  It&#8217;s easier for these people to spam the IE Blog with &#8220;Firefox rulz, down with M$&#8221; than to actually form a deep coherent thought and consider how much effort the IE team has already made toward giving us something in the way of better standards support.. . er .. wait&#8230;  it&#8217;s another blanket statement!  .. the circle is complete&#8230; ah, what am I saying,  who knows *what* they&#8217;re thinking!  </p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;m just thrilled that we&#8217;re *finally* getting a new Explorer and I can&#8217;t wait till IE6 has gone the way of the dodo.</p>
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		<title>By: Al Sparber</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-25012</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Sparber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Apr 2006 04:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-25012</guid>
		<description>I agree with you. Well said. No foul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you. Well said. No foul.</p>
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		<title>By: Synthage</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23542</link>
		<dc:creator>Synthage</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Apr 2006 02:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23542</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;“It&quot;s great that there are developers on the IE team who care about web standards. But why does it surprise you that nobody wants to embrace Microsoft like a big cuddly teddy bear? “&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It doesn&quot;t. What surprises me is that so many people still can&quot;t tell the difference between the two.  

well, I guess you shouldn&#039;t be surprised at all. People do have a tendency to oversimplify things so that they can understand the world around them. So it&#039;s a natural thing for a user, who discovers that MS software cannot perform exactly the way they expect it to with little or no effort on their behalf (as seen in Star trek), to think of MS as an evil, orwellian, money-grabbing entity. Next logical step is to attribute these characteristics to anyone related to MS. It&#039;s a very superficial point of view, but, hey, is that the mainstream in webland?
Having said that I still think that IE is by far inferior to its competitors, and the IE team has its share of responsibility for that (regardless of their bosses&#039; agenda).
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>“It&#8221;s great that there are developers on the IE team who care about web standards. But why does it surprise you that nobody wants to embrace Microsoft like a big cuddly teddy bear? “</p></blockquote>
<p>It doesn&#8221;t. What surprises me is that so many people still can&#8221;t tell the difference between the two.  </p>
<p>well, I guess you shouldn&#8217;t be surprised at all. People do have a tendency to oversimplify things so that they can understand the world around them. So it&#8217;s a natural thing for a user, who discovers that MS software cannot perform exactly the way they expect it to with little or no effort on their behalf (as seen in Star trek), to think of MS as an evil, orwellian, money-grabbing entity. Next logical step is to attribute these characteristics to anyone related to MS. It&#8217;s a very superficial point of view, but, hey, is that the mainstream in webland?<br />
Having said that I still think that IE is by far inferior to its competitors, and the IE team has its share of responsibility for that (regardless of their bosses&#8217; agenda).</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan DeGruchy</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23481</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan DeGruchy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Apr 2006 19:24:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23481</guid>
		<description>Well, I must say I guess I&#039;m a little honored to be picked out by Eric to have my quote refuted.

I guess I should say that while I like the things said by the developers at Microsoft, I still am waiting to see this mystical MSIE 7 that will fix all of our problems so we all can skip merrily through the flowers, not a care in the world.

I digress.  

I realize they are people too, and that they more than likely care about the same issues we do.  However, once they enter the machine, it&#039;s hard to differentiate them from the actions of their superiors unless you are staring them in the face.

In the end, it doesn&#039;t really matter if MSIE 7 fixes the long-standing problems in 6 or introduces a whole new set.  As long as the developers are not just glad-handing the community as a way of keeping their sinking product afloat, then maybe there is hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I must say I guess I&#8217;m a little honored to be picked out by Eric to have my quote refuted.</p>
<p>I guess I should say that while I like the things said by the developers at Microsoft, I still am waiting to see this mystical MSIE 7 that will fix all of our problems so we all can skip merrily through the flowers, not a care in the world.</p>
<p>I digress.  </p>
<p>I realize they are people too, and that they more than likely care about the same issues we do.  However, once they enter the machine, it&#8217;s hard to differentiate them from the actions of their superiors unless you are staring them in the face.</p>
<p>In the end, it doesn&#8217;t really matter if MSIE 7 fixes the long-standing problems in 6 or introduces a whole new set.  As long as the developers are not just glad-handing the community as a way of keeping their sinking product afloat, then maybe there is hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Peacock</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23247</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Peacock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 20:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23247</guid>
		<description>Excellent point which is somewhat obvious to me but I still remain guilty of holding a grudge against IE (for lateness and not learning from the proof-of-concept IE 5 Mac).

Grudge aside, I was really, really glad to hear they had un-frozen the thing and were going to update it. I&#039;m game for any improvements over no improvements at all. The IE user base is just too large to ignore after all and I can&#039;t wait for v7 to seep into the higher percentages of user agent web statistics.

As is noted Eric exemplifies the professional attitude as a leader should. He is a virtual mentor to anyone who&#039;s been pushing CSS for the past few years.

I&#039;ll add that it isn&#039;t fair to blame MS for everything because the web itself has grown faster than any standard could be ratified. It skipped HTML 2 entirely and hopped all over the place with third-party plug-ins and scripting technologies while we discovered what it could do. Now lessons have been learned and the needs are much clearer, and so we deal with the clean up while we build our latest web masterpiece. And though I agree with Eric that there is not a unified voice from the design community, there does seem to be a clear path to standards that wasn&#039;t so clear a few years ago – and the IE team appears to know this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent point which is somewhat obvious to me but I still remain guilty of holding a grudge against IE (for lateness and not learning from the proof-of-concept IE 5 Mac).</p>
<p>Grudge aside, I was really, really glad to hear they had un-frozen the thing and were going to update it. I&#8217;m game for any improvements over no improvements at all. The IE user base is just too large to ignore after all and I can&#8217;t wait for v7 to seep into the higher percentages of user agent web statistics.</p>
<p>As is noted Eric exemplifies the professional attitude as a leader should. He is a virtual mentor to anyone who&#8217;s been pushing CSS for the past few years.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll add that it isn&#8217;t fair to blame MS for everything because the web itself has grown faster than any standard could be ratified. It skipped HTML 2 entirely and hopped all over the place with third-party plug-ins and scripting technologies while we discovered what it could do. Now lessons have been learned and the needs are much clearer, and so we deal with the clean up while we build our latest web masterpiece. And though I agree with Eric that there is not a unified voice from the design community, there does seem to be a clear path to standards that wasn&#8217;t so clear a few years ago – and the IE team appears to know this.</p>
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		<title>By: Richard</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23214</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:56:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23214</guid>
		<description>&quot;Wrong. If all their decisions were based on money, they&quot;d have spent not one minute on standards support, and put that time and effort into more complex WPF-driven enhanced advertising technology or something similar. Keep telling yourself that the IE team only cares about money and not about standards if you like. You&quot;ll continue to be wrong.&quot;


Microsoft are a profit making organisation and therefore driven by money. Their &#039;desire&#039; to implement web standards comes from the fact that this is where the future of development lies and therefore money. The fact that they have competitors delivering things that they are not and who can potentially lower their profits is a catalyst for their actions. 

I have no idea what &#039;WPF-driven enhanced advertising technology&#039; is - I suspect you are tring to blind me with your knowledge of this technology (or at least the terminology); but I&#039;m certain that if they could be sure that custom would not be driven away to it&#039;s competitors (on top of monetary considerations) then they would indeed be investing heavily in it over web standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Wrong. If all their decisions were based on money, they&#8221;d have spent not one minute on standards support, and put that time and effort into more complex WPF-driven enhanced advertising technology or something similar. Keep telling yourself that the IE team only cares about money and not about standards if you like. You&#8221;ll continue to be wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>Microsoft are a profit making organisation and therefore driven by money. Their &#8216;desire&#8217; to implement web standards comes from the fact that this is where the future of development lies and therefore money. The fact that they have competitors delivering things that they are not and who can potentially lower their profits is a catalyst for their actions. </p>
<p>I have no idea what &#8216;WPF-driven enhanced advertising technology&#8217; is &#8211; I suspect you are tring to blind me with your knowledge of this technology (or at least the terminology); but I&#8217;m certain that if they could be sure that custom would not be driven away to it&#8217;s competitors (on top of monetary considerations) then they would indeed be investing heavily in it over web standards.</p>
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		<title>By: Olly</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23209</link>
		<dc:creator>Olly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 12:54:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23209</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/&quot;&gt;Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, wore it threadbare, and repurposed it as a cleaning rag.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Pure chuffing genius :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/"><p>Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, wore it threadbare, and repurposed it as a cleaning rag.</p></blockquote>
<p>Pure chuffing genius :)</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Goddard</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23207</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Goddard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 11:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23207</guid>
		<description>I work as a web developer and ever since I started in 2001 I have been passionate about web standards, not least inspired by you Eric. I am now coding in .net 2.0 and using Visual Studio 2005, and frankly I am sick and tired of the kneejerk reactions from the Open Source Evangelists who know very little about the ways in which Microsoft involve the developer community and how they have made enormous leaps to ensure that it is straightforward to output semantically correct standards based client User Interfaces (that&#039;s web-pages to the rest of us) utilising the new rich programmuing environments they offer.

Irrespective of Micro&#039;$&#039;oft&#039;s (sic)  profit motivations, the intoduction of WPF, IE7, Visual Studio 2005 (&amp; associated releases) all point towards a joined-up, developer focused set of production tools that enable web (and Windows) development to meet standards now and in the future from the small scale blogger up to the enterprise developer.

In all the projects that I have worked on (all in the UK) I have never encoutered any difficulties supporting standards, nor have I encountered any employer resistance to these development methodologies. Microsoft DO support standards and, in their latest batch of developer tools, show a clear commitment to them. 

No I don&#039;t work for Microsoft.
 
Yes I fully support Eric in his views. He has hit the nail right on the head and driven it home.

Perhaps it&#039;s time for the Open Source crowd to stop flailing with their hammers (ok the analogy is getting a bit stretched!) and consider what Microsoft have accomplished. I have seen very little to compete in the enterprise and there is nothing that can be achieved with LAMP that .NET wont do.

IE7 is a massive step forward. Well done Eric for once again having the sense to see the situation for what it is.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I work as a web developer and ever since I started in 2001 I have been passionate about web standards, not least inspired by you Eric. I am now coding in .net 2.0 and using Visual Studio 2005, and frankly I am sick and tired of the kneejerk reactions from the Open Source Evangelists who know very little about the ways in which Microsoft involve the developer community and how they have made enormous leaps to ensure that it is straightforward to output semantically correct standards based client User Interfaces (that&#8217;s web-pages to the rest of us) utilising the new rich programmuing environments they offer.</p>
<p>Irrespective of Micro&#8217;$'oft&#8217;s (sic)  profit motivations, the intoduction of WPF, IE7, Visual Studio 2005 (&amp; associated releases) all point towards a joined-up, developer focused set of production tools that enable web (and Windows) development to meet standards now and in the future from the small scale blogger up to the enterprise developer.</p>
<p>In all the projects that I have worked on (all in the UK) I have never encoutered any difficulties supporting standards, nor have I encountered any employer resistance to these development methodologies. Microsoft DO support standards and, in their latest batch of developer tools, show a clear commitment to them. </p>
<p>No I don&#8217;t work for Microsoft.</p>
<p>Yes I fully support Eric in his views. He has hit the nail right on the head and driven it home.</p>
<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s time for the Open Source crowd to stop flailing with their hammers (ok the analogy is getting a bit stretched!) and consider what Microsoft have accomplished. I have seen very little to compete in the enterprise and there is nothing that can be achieved with LAMP that .NET wont do.</p>
<p>IE7 is a massive step forward. Well done Eric for once again having the sense to see the situation for what it is.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23194</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 09:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23194</guid>
		<description>In the long run, once IE7 is taken up by the mass of web users (as it will be), its standards support is going to make our lives easier as web developers. I can&#039;t see how anyone can see this as a bad thing. Sure, IE6 has caused me lots of pain before, but its just ludicrous to harbour ill-will to Microsoft because of it. As a few posters have pointed out, Microsoft-bashing is just fashionable (and has been for a long, long time). 

Back in the good old days Netscape 4 used to be the most wretched browser to develop for; yet without Netscape we wouldn&#039;t have Firefox. Where would the web be today if we all harboured grudges against software companies for one product that caused us grief?

Eric, all the flack you&#039;ve copped over praising Microsoft&#039;s efforts with IE7 is all nonsense. Good on you for continually speaking your mind in the face of such rubbish, and good on Microsoft for taking the steps to develop a better product. I&#039;m not exactly a huge fan of Microsoft, but at least this is something they are doing right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In the long run, once IE7 is taken up by the mass of web users (as it will be), its standards support is going to make our lives easier as web developers. I can&#8217;t see how anyone can see this as a bad thing. Sure, IE6 has caused me lots of pain before, but its just ludicrous to harbour ill-will to Microsoft because of it. As a few posters have pointed out, Microsoft-bashing is just fashionable (and has been for a long, long time). </p>
<p>Back in the good old days Netscape 4 used to be the most wretched browser to develop for; yet without Netscape we wouldn&#8217;t have Firefox. Where would the web be today if we all harboured grudges against software companies for one product that caused us grief?</p>
<p>Eric, all the flack you&#8217;ve copped over praising Microsoft&#8217;s efforts with IE7 is all nonsense. Good on you for continually speaking your mind in the face of such rubbish, and good on Microsoft for taking the steps to develop a better product. I&#8217;m not exactly a huge fan of Microsoft, but at least this is something they are doing right.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tore Westre</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23155</link>
		<dc:creator>Tore Westre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Apr 2006 03:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23155</guid>
		<description>The way I see the &quot;What browser to use&quot; issue:

 IE is mainly refered to as &quot;the most popular browser&quot;. It would be better to refer to IE as &quot;the most used browser&quot; in my eyes.

 As the world consists of alot more users than designers, the designers should appreciate that IE gets their standards compatibility up from the mid 90&#039;s.

 You also have to think about WHY almost everyone uses IE. Firstly it comes pre-installed on almost every new computer. That&#039;s Microsofts fault and not their IE-design team. Secondly there&#039;s only a minority of users who cares what browser they&#039;re using or even know there are more than one.

 So, as long as computers comes with IE pre-installed, I&#039;m pleased that they(the IE team) are working on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way I see the &#8220;What browser to use&#8221; issue:</p>
<p> IE is mainly refered to as &#8220;the most popular browser&#8221;. It would be better to refer to IE as &#8220;the most used browser&#8221; in my eyes.</p>
<p> As the world consists of alot more users than designers, the designers should appreciate that IE gets their standards compatibility up from the mid 90&#8217;s.</p>
<p> You also have to think about WHY almost everyone uses IE. Firstly it comes pre-installed on almost every new computer. That&#8217;s Microsofts fault and not their IE-design team. Secondly there&#8217;s only a minority of users who cares what browser they&#8217;re using or even know there are more than one.</p>
<p> So, as long as computers comes with IE pre-installed, I&#8217;m pleased that they(the IE team) are working on it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Martijn ten Napel</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23122</link>
		<dc:creator>Martijn ten Napel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Apr 2006 07:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/defend-ie-go-to-jail/#comment-23122</guid>
		<description>Although Firfox might have given the IE Team&#039;s profile a little boost, so far the amount of people turning away from Internet Explorer has been low. I&#039;m glad IE7 moves towards a point where we don&#039;t have to jump hoops to get a website running on all browsers without endless exceptions and recodes in the CSS.

IE7 is far from perfect (negative margins on a element containt in a absolute positioned box makes a mess in IE7 to my surprise. Luckily I have found a work around that leaves IE5/Mac in the cold; but that&#039;s OK. IE5/Mac is discontinued and with a little CSS hackery you get it running in IE5/Mac), but moving into the right direction.

The only thing we have to worry about is that some manager somewhere will decide &#039;OK, now you&#039;ve got an updated IE7, let&#039;s focus on something else and take away time and money from the team&#039;. That&#039;s why I really dislike the company; it always seems to produce half-baked solutions and then tells us it is the sweetest bread on the market. They get away with it every time, so who can blame them for doing that? It&#039;s us users in the end that seem to thing half-baked is the standard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although Firfox might have given the IE Team&#8217;s profile a little boost, so far the amount of people turning away from Internet Explorer has been low. I&#8217;m glad IE7 moves towards a point where we don&#8217;t have to jump hoops to get a website running on all browsers without endless exceptions and recodes in the CSS.</p>
<p>IE7 is far from perfect (negative margins on a element containt in a absolute positioned box makes a mess in IE7 to my surprise. Luckily I have found a work around that leaves IE5/Mac in the cold; but that&#8217;s OK. IE5/Mac is discontinued and with a little CSS hackery you get it running in IE5/Mac), but moving into the right direction.</p>
<p>The only thing we have to worry about is that some manager somewhere will decide &#8216;OK, now you&#8217;ve got an updated IE7, let&#8217;s focus on something else and take away time and money from the team&#8217;. That&#8217;s why I really dislike the company; it always seems to produce half-baked solutions and then tells us it is the sweetest bread on the market. They get away with it every time, so who can blame them for doing that? It&#8217;s us users in the end that seem to thing half-baked is the standard.</p>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Praise IE, Go to Jail">Praise IE, Go to Jail</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Fri 14 Apr 2006</li>
<li class="time">2313</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/browsers/" title="View all posts in Browsers" rel="category tag">Browsers</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/04/14/praise-ie-go-to-jail/#comments">33 responses</a></li>
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<div class="text">
<p>
A week or so back, the shattered remains of a wasps&#8217; nest appeared in our driveway.  Despite the fact that it&#8217;s clearly vacant&#8212;even wasps know when it&#8217;s time to find new digs&#8212;I still tread carefully whenever I walk past, avoiding them out of some latent respect for the threat they once contained.
</p>
<p>
You&#8217;d think I&#8217;d behave in a like manner in the rest of my life, but no.  For example: I recently <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/03/23/ie7-improvements-and-bug-tracking/">spoke well of the IE team and their efforts</a>.  Kind of an obvious goof, really, but I&#8217;d hoped for a different outcome.  It&#8217;s the incurable optimist in me.  And when I say &#8220;incurable&#8221;, I mean that in the sense of &#8220;disease that can&#8217;t be purged from my body and will no doubt one day kill me&#8221;.
</p>
<p>
While the enraged buzzing took many forms, the comment that seemed to distill the bulk of people&#8217;s anger was this:
</p>
<blockquote>
<p>
&#8220;How am I supposed to trust a smiling face of some developer at Microsoft when the company as a whole was charged with being an illegal monopoly not too long ago?&#8221;
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
Because one is a <em>person</em>, and the other is a <em>corporation</em>.  I realize that American law moronically (and, in a certain sense, unlawfully) equates the two, but they really are distinct concepts.
</p>
<p>
You can dismiss my attitude as the biased perspective of someone who personally knows members of the IE team.  That would be a major miscalculation, because it&#8217;s those personal relationships that make my observations different than what you&#8217;ll find elsewhere.  Think what you will of Microsoft, but there are actual <em>people</em> working on IE, and they&#8217;re by and large people who care about the same things we care about.  They are part of this story.  If you think they&#8217;re minor nodes in a monolithic collective consciousness, then boy, do you ever have a lot to learn about how large organizations function.
</p>
<p>
Allow me to draw an analogy, if I may.  While at Mix 06, I was talking with one of the senior IE team folks about improving standards and the browser market.  He said to me, &#8220;So what is it the Web design community wants?&#8221;&#8212;as if there is a single such community, and it always speaks with a unified voice on all matters.  Does that sound like the Web design community you know?  Does that even sound like any arbitrary collection of five Web designers you know?  (Aside to WaSP steering committee members: feel free to take a ten-minute laughter break.)
</p>
<p>
So why do we assume that Microsoft, a company with tens of thousands of employees working in hundreds of teams and units, would be any more unified?  Sure, the PR department speaks with a single voice.  To take that as representative of every Microsoft engineer is like ceding all authority for your thoughts and opinions on Web development and design to the <a href="http://webstandards.org/">Web Standards Project</a>.  Anyone volunteering for that?
</p>
<p>
Not me, thanks.  Not even when I was a member, back towards the end of the last millennium.
</p>
<p>
This is what I said to him, by the way, except I compared the Web community to Microsoft, with all its subunits and competing voices and priorities and goals.  He got what I was saying instantly, even though it let him down a bit.  His job would be easier, after all, if the Web design community were a unified collective.  It&#8217;s certainly less mental effort to think of &#8220;the other camp&#8221; as being a Borg-like hive, isn&#8217;t it?
</p>
<p>
A few people accused me of being lulled into missing the Great Looming Threat of Microsoft&#8217;s non-standards efforts.  For example:
</p>

<blockquote>
<p>
&#8220;&#8230;Microsoft spent those years planning and building <acronym title="Windows Presentation Foundation">WPF</acronym>, to lure Web developers into its proprietary and patent-protected embrace. And that should have you most concerned.&#8221;
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, wore it threadbare, and repurposed it as a cleaning rag.  I was openly expressing precisely that concern <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2003/10/24/corralled/" title="Corralled">back in October 2003</a>, which as you may recall was near the middle of said years.  The aggregate response of the community was a disinterested shrug.  This was largely true whether I posted publicly or talked to people one on one, as I&#8217;d done in several cases in the months <em>before</em> October 2003.  The only place I found any similar concern was with some folks at Macromedia, thank you very much.  Everyone else seemed to think I was on crack.  So sorry, but I pretty much wore out my concern back then.  You can have it now.
</p>
<p>
Besides, over time I&#8217;ve come to see WPF (as it&#8217;s now called) as being very much like Flash, which it clearly wants to supplant.  Despite all these years of Flash being very widely installed, and all the years of Flash being able to do XML data exchange with servers to cause dynamic updating of pages&#8212;you know, like Ajax does&#8212;the Web has not become an enormous Flash application.
</p>
<p>
I thought the most interesting observation was this one:
</p>

<blockquote>
<p>
&#8220;Dave Shea pointed out&#8230; a few months ago that one reason [for IE7] may be that Microsoft, in developing things like live.com, are finally having to eat their own dogfood, struggling to get things working on their own browser, and that as such there may have been internal pressure to get things up to scratch.&#8221;
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
That makes a certain amount of sense, though I&#8217;m not about to accept it as the sole reason for IE7&#8217;s development path or even its existence.  I think there were a whole lot of factors that drove IE7 into being, and standards support was honestly pretty far down on the list.  I, for one, am deeply grateful that the IE team seized on the opportunity to build better standards support into the browser, whatever the internal rationale they used to justify it to the higher-ups.
</p>
<p>
I&#8217;m also impressed with the CSS and other advances in IE7, and with how the IE team is managing the development process to accommodate the needs of Web developers and designers.  They didn&#8217;t have to do any of that.  After all the crap they&#8217;ve had dumped on them the last decade or more, they have every reason not to care about what&#8217;s best for the Web.  Despite this, they still do.  Recognize and respect that, if nothing else.
</p>

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<h4>The <a href="/feeds/excuse/">excuse of the day</a> is</h4>
<p>Republicans</p>
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