<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Dvoraked</title>
	<atom:link href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 00:27:46 -0400</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Eric Ordway</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-50140</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Ordway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-50140</guid>
		<description>OK Dvorak was off-base in his arguments, but CSS IS harder than it should be.  You want proof?  How many articles are there claiming to have found the “Holy Grail” of the 3 column layout with a header and a footer?  And every last one of them does not work consistently across browsers. Before you say, “But that&quot;s not the fault of CSS, it&quot;s the browsers!”, remember how easy it is to achieve this layout using tables.  The very first thing the designers should have done is made sure this basic layout was trivial to implement.  Don&quot;t get me wrong, I know CSS is better that what came before it, but come on, the very fact that the term “Holy Grail” is used means that CSS is broken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK Dvorak was off-base in his arguments, but CSS IS harder than it should be.  You want proof?  How many articles are there claiming to have found the “Holy Grail” of the 3 column layout with a header and a footer?  And every last one of them does not work consistently across browsers. Before you say, “But that&#8221;s not the fault of CSS, it&#8221;s the browsers!”, remember how easy it is to achieve this layout using tables.  The very first thing the designers should have done is made sure this basic layout was trivial to implement.  Don&#8221;t get me wrong, I know CSS is better that what came before it, but come on, the very fact that the term “Holy Grail” is used means that CSS is broken.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Emil Stenström</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-44214</link>
		<dc:creator>Emil Stenström</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 17:47:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-44214</guid>
		<description>If I may be so bold as to post a link to my own &lt;a href=&quot;http://friendlybit.com/css/beginners-guide-to-css-and-standards/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CSS tutorial&lt;/a&gt;. It&#039;s far from perfect but it seems that people are acctually reading it and &quot;getting it&quot;. We need more tuturials like that, short and to the point. Who&#039;s up for it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If I may be so bold as to post a link to my own <a href="http://friendlybit.com/css/beginners-guide-to-css-and-standards/" rel="nofollow">CSS tutorial</a>. It&#8217;s far from perfect but it seems that people are acctually reading it and &#8220;getting it&#8221;. We need more tuturials like that, short and to the point. Who&#8217;s up for it?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zach Blume</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-43856</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach Blume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Aug 2006 15:34:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-43856</guid>
		<description>Heh. Dvorak justy got pwnt by the most qualified CSS expert.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Heh. Dvorak justy got pwnt by the most qualified CSS expert.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-42394</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 23:21:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-42394</guid>
		<description>I just read this article not 5 minutes before loading up meyerweb... oh the irony.  Great rebuttal Eric! This Dvorak guy seriously needs to know what he&#039;s talking about before opening his mouth next time.  It&#039;s a shame that PC magazine even would publish such trash.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just read this article not 5 minutes before loading up meyerweb&#8230; oh the irony.  Great rebuttal Eric! This Dvorak guy seriously needs to know what he&#8217;s talking about before opening his mouth next time.  It&#8217;s a shame that PC magazine even would publish such trash.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aravind&#8217;s Link Blog &#187; Same old argument</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-42285</link>
		<dc:creator>Aravind&#8217;s Link Blog &#187; Same old argument</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 01:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-42285</guid>
		<description>[...] Dvorak, my favorite TWIT army member, wrote an article about CSS and why it is bugging him. Eric Meyer, a well know CSS expert, gave a nice response and interestingly molly, another famous person involved in CSS and web standards, gave a shocking response. Check them out. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dvorak, my favorite TWIT army member, wrote an article about CSS and why it is bugging him. Eric Meyer, a well know CSS expert, gave a nice response and interestingly molly, another famous person involved in CSS and web standards, gave a shocking response. Check them out. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Max Design &#187; Some links for light reading (28/7/06)</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41947</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Design &#187; Some links for light reading (28/7/06)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 21:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41947</guid>
		<description>[...] Dvoraked [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Dvoraked [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Rubin&#8217;s SuperfluousBanter (Orangina Edition) &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dvorak&#8217;s Cry For Help</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41929</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Rubin&#8217;s SuperfluousBanter (Orangina Edition) &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dvorak&#8217;s Cry For Help</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Aug 2006 17:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41929</guid>
		<description>[...] Now, as I myself have only become aware of Dear John&#8217;s consternation (due, of course, to my head being stuck inside a Word document &#8212; let&#8217;s not even talk about me not hearing about the whole Castro power switch, living in South Florida and all&#8230;), I felt that it is my duty as a responsible member of the CSS community to help out in some way, albeit a few days behind everyone else. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Now, as I myself have only become aware of Dear John&#8217;s consternation (due, of course, to my head being stuck inside a Word document &mdash; let&#8217;s not even talk about me not hearing about the whole Castro power switch, living in South Florida and all&#8230;), I felt that it is my duty as a responsible member of the CSS community to help out in some way, albeit a few days behind everyone else. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Orion Adrian</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41509</link>
		<dc:creator>Orion Adrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 22:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41509</guid>
		<description>First, I&#039;m SuperSheep23. Second of all, I&#039;d like to say that I think the CSS working group has done a very good job overall and I&#039;ve long been a fan of your work Eric Meyer.

&quot;I can&quot;t speak to SuperSheep23&quot;s perception of the CSS Working Group, as I don&quot;t know what he proposed nor how he did it. I don&quot;t even know that he talked to the WG---it&quot;s more likely he discussed things on www-style, which is open to all.&quot;

You are right that I voiced myself on www-style and not at the working group meetings. So it isn&#039;t quite fair to say that I brought it up with the working group so much as I brought it up in www-style and members from the working group responded (among others).

I break down CSS&#039;s problems into two categories (fundamental and not).

The first fundamental problem is one of scale:

Even in an all software on a platform renders CSS the same utopia, each destination device requires additional CSS if not a complete CSS re-write. Media queries are what allow you to target these devices, but it only allows you to do the extra work, it doesn&#039;t do that work for you. Even so, it only allows you to account for screen real estate and not device capabilities (mouse, keyboard, touch screen). Creating a usable website for a mouse and keyboard combination is very different than creating a site for a touch screen system is different than creating a web site for a phone or PDA.

So, to me, it doesn&#039;t make sense to specify CSS on the server (versus the client). As you can imagine this went over like a lead balloon. This is a fundamental problem of scale that requires web designers to create far too much content. Given that most sites don&#039;t test in alternate browsers how can we expect them to target alternate devices which may number some day in the hundreds?

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The second fundamental problem is regards user stylesheets:

The ability to use user stylesheets is effectively an all or nothing thing. Since CSS layouts are constructive (meaning layouts are built from properties on the elements; compare the advanced layout module where elements are assigned to zones), small changes (e.g. font size or line spacing) can ruin a website&#039;s layout. This means that the author of the user stylesheet must overwrite all layout and positioning properties which may also result in a fairly bad experience in practice (ideally as designed it shouldn&#039;t be so bad, but we don&#039;t live in that world).

-----------------------------------------------------------------

The third fundamental issue is inconsistent grammar:

I&#039;m not the first person, nor will I be the last person to bring this issue up. CSS overloads a number of grammar elements which adds fairly quickly to confusion. The most recent proposed overload is the comma, which will now be used both as a selective fallback (in font) and as an array operator (for multiple backgrounds).

Next there are properties where the order of the values matter (e.g. border-width) and where they do not (e.g. border). This system complicates the parser for what I&#039;m hoping are obvious reason (I&#039;m just trying to keep the length of the post down). This also prevents the addition of properties into compound properties where we cannot use heuristic evaluation (e.g. two properties that can both have a length or both have the keyword black). A prime example of this is the one-off example of font-size and line-height in the compound font property. These one-off issues prevent the kind of abstraction necessary in learning. Each exception must be memorized for CSS to be used which slows down the learning process and slows down non-master usage.

=================================================================

Other problems fall into design issues that aren&#039;t at the core of CSS, but make my life (and others as I would imagine) difficult.

The first issue has to do with requiring me to translate layouts into the box model and attach those properties to elements. Since this produces a constructive layout small changes to the source can have dramatic and undesired effects. The advanced layout module hopes to help with this.

The second issue has to do with lack of portability. Again the advanced layout module seeks to help with this, but I fear it does not do enough. The core layout of a document should exist at the top of the CSS document making it easy to use as a reference. Part of the problems brought up before is the difficulty in reading CSS and determining what a layout will look like given the CSS for it.

The third issue is the inability to place things relative to each other in more interesting ways. There are 9 points of interest on a rectangular object: the four corners, the middle of the four sides and the absolute center. These are easy to calculate, but CSS gives us very little in terms of laying something out in terms of these properties. Centering an object within another object is very unintuitive to me and those I&#039;ve taught, it is the way it is. Having to explain to artists that in order to center something they need to mess with its margins isn&#039;t exactly intuitive for them (admittedly a limited subset of users). CSS though feels like its full of these &quot;mean A, write B&quot; systems. What I&#039;m looking for is the ability to say place object A&#039;s center at the lower right corner of object B.

=================================================================

I&#039;ve got solutions to a great many of these problems, some of which I&#039;ve presented both well and badly to the www-style list.

While my issues with the technology may or may not have merit I would like them discussed. The continual stance that some people have shown (both working group members on www-style and users of the technology) saying that there is nothing wrong with CSS (I am glad you at least admit weaknesses) and that I simply haven&#039;t learned it well enough is insulting to me.

I am not in your &quot;league&quot; Eric Meyer, but my issues with CSS are not based on my lack of understanding. I do understand a great deal of CSS. I&#039;ve used it professionally for a long time now and I keep fairly up to date on the draft recommendations so I know what&#039;s coming up. I also read pretty much everything that comes out of www-style and www-html.

Pretty much everything that runs on computers runs at machine code at some point. This isn&#039;t a very good way to program though we did at one point with punch cards. Then assembler was invented. That evolution started a long chain of new languages that seek to improve and help abstract away the difficulties in our job so we can concentrate on harder and harder problems. CSS is far from done and the fundamental problems I&#039;ve listed will not likely be addressed by the language ever and it may be another decade before I see my non-fundamental, but still important (at least to me) problems addressed. So each time I hear, &quot;you can do it with CSS via this translation of what it is you want to do and that should be enough&quot; I think back to all those programmers who probably thought nobody ever needed anything but assembler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I&#8217;m SuperSheep23. Second of all, I&#8217;d like to say that I think the CSS working group has done a very good job overall and I&#8217;ve long been a fan of your work Eric Meyer.</p>
<p>&#8220;I can&#8221;t speak to SuperSheep23&#8243;s perception of the CSS Working Group, as I don&#8221;t know what he proposed nor how he did it. I don&#8221;t even know that he talked to the WG&#8212;it&#8221;s more likely he discussed things on www-style, which is open to all.&#8221;</p>
<p>You are right that I voiced myself on www-style and not at the working group meetings. So it isn&#8217;t quite fair to say that I brought it up with the working group so much as I brought it up in www-style and members from the working group responded (among others).</p>
<p>I break down CSS&#8217;s problems into two categories (fundamental and not).</p>
<p>The first fundamental problem is one of scale:</p>
<p>Even in an all software on a platform renders CSS the same utopia, each destination device requires additional CSS if not a complete CSS re-write. Media queries are what allow you to target these devices, but it only allows you to do the extra work, it doesn&#8217;t do that work for you. Even so, it only allows you to account for screen real estate and not device capabilities (mouse, keyboard, touch screen). Creating a usable website for a mouse and keyboard combination is very different than creating a site for a touch screen system is different than creating a web site for a phone or PDA.</p>
<p>So, to me, it doesn&#8217;t make sense to specify CSS on the server (versus the client). As you can imagine this went over like a lead balloon. This is a fundamental problem of scale that requires web designers to create far too much content. Given that most sites don&#8217;t test in alternate browsers how can we expect them to target alternate devices which may number some day in the hundreds?</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>The second fundamental problem is regards user stylesheets:</p>
<p>The ability to use user stylesheets is effectively an all or nothing thing. Since CSS layouts are constructive (meaning layouts are built from properties on the elements; compare the advanced layout module where elements are assigned to zones), small changes (e.g. font size or line spacing) can ruin a website&#8217;s layout. This means that the author of the user stylesheet must overwrite all layout and positioning properties which may also result in a fairly bad experience in practice (ideally as designed it shouldn&#8217;t be so bad, but we don&#8217;t live in that world).</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>The third fundamental issue is inconsistent grammar:</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not the first person, nor will I be the last person to bring this issue up. CSS overloads a number of grammar elements which adds fairly quickly to confusion. The most recent proposed overload is the comma, which will now be used both as a selective fallback (in font) and as an array operator (for multiple backgrounds).</p>
<p>Next there are properties where the order of the values matter (e.g. border-width) and where they do not (e.g. border). This system complicates the parser for what I&#8217;m hoping are obvious reason (I&#8217;m just trying to keep the length of the post down). This also prevents the addition of properties into compound properties where we cannot use heuristic evaluation (e.g. two properties that can both have a length or both have the keyword black). A prime example of this is the one-off example of font-size and line-height in the compound font property. These one-off issues prevent the kind of abstraction necessary in learning. Each exception must be memorized for CSS to be used which slows down the learning process and slows down non-master usage.</p>
<p>=================================================================</p>
<p>Other problems fall into design issues that aren&#8217;t at the core of CSS, but make my life (and others as I would imagine) difficult.</p>
<p>The first issue has to do with requiring me to translate layouts into the box model and attach those properties to elements. Since this produces a constructive layout small changes to the source can have dramatic and undesired effects. The advanced layout module hopes to help with this.</p>
<p>The second issue has to do with lack of portability. Again the advanced layout module seeks to help with this, but I fear it does not do enough. The core layout of a document should exist at the top of the CSS document making it easy to use as a reference. Part of the problems brought up before is the difficulty in reading CSS and determining what a layout will look like given the CSS for it.</p>
<p>The third issue is the inability to place things relative to each other in more interesting ways. There are 9 points of interest on a rectangular object: the four corners, the middle of the four sides and the absolute center. These are easy to calculate, but CSS gives us very little in terms of laying something out in terms of these properties. Centering an object within another object is very unintuitive to me and those I&#8217;ve taught, it is the way it is. Having to explain to artists that in order to center something they need to mess with its margins isn&#8217;t exactly intuitive for them (admittedly a limited subset of users). CSS though feels like its full of these &#8220;mean A, write B&#8221; systems. What I&#8217;m looking for is the ability to say place object A&#8217;s center at the lower right corner of object B.</p>
<p>=================================================================</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve got solutions to a great many of these problems, some of which I&#8217;ve presented both well and badly to the www-style list.</p>
<p>While my issues with the technology may or may not have merit I would like them discussed. The continual stance that some people have shown (both working group members on www-style and users of the technology) saying that there is nothing wrong with CSS (I am glad you at least admit weaknesses) and that I simply haven&#8217;t learned it well enough is insulting to me.</p>
<p>I am not in your &#8220;league&#8221; Eric Meyer, but my issues with CSS are not based on my lack of understanding. I do understand a great deal of CSS. I&#8217;ve used it professionally for a long time now and I keep fairly up to date on the draft recommendations so I know what&#8217;s coming up. I also read pretty much everything that comes out of www-style and www-html.</p>
<p>Pretty much everything that runs on computers runs at machine code at some point. This isn&#8217;t a very good way to program though we did at one point with punch cards. Then assembler was invented. That evolution started a long chain of new languages that seek to improve and help abstract away the difficulties in our job so we can concentrate on harder and harder problems. CSS is far from done and the fundamental problems I&#8217;ve listed will not likely be addressed by the language ever and it may be another decade before I see my non-fundamental, but still important (at least to me) problems addressed. So each time I hear, &#8220;you can do it with CSS via this translation of what it is you want to do and that should be enough&#8221; I think back to all those programmers who probably thought nobody ever needed anything but assembler.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jina Bolton</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41505</link>
		<dc:creator>Jina Bolton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Aug 2006 21:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41505</guid>
		<description>Jeff, your comment to Becki above was absolutely the best way I think anyone could have put it.  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, your comment to Becki above was absolutely the best way I think anyone could have put it.  :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41230</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 22:18:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41230</guid>
		<description>Great rebuttal, Eric. I can sympathize with Dvorak&#039;s frustration but his petulant diatribe is ignorant in the extreme... reminiscent of Tom Cruise&#039;s comments on mental health.

CSS certainly has its frustrating, hair-tearing, computer-punching moments but it&#039;s a huge improvement on the past... and besides most of the problems really are browser-specific.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great rebuttal, Eric. I can sympathize with Dvorak&#8217;s frustration but his petulant diatribe is ignorant in the extreme&#8230; reminiscent of Tom Cruise&#8217;s comments on mental health.</p>
<p>CSS certainly has its frustrating, hair-tearing, computer-punching moments but it&#8217;s a huge improvement on the past&#8230; and besides most of the problems really are browser-specific.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41210</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41210</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41140&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Maurice&lt;/a&gt;:

I read some of the comments on Dvorak&#039;s post, and saw many of SuperSheep23&#039;s posts.  I&#039;m not interesting in rebutting everyone who finds fault with CSS.  Some are on target, some are partly on target, and some are way off target.

As for SuperSheep23, he&#039;s right that some layouts are very difficult in CSS.  Who could deny this?  I would characterize this situation as a set of limitations rather than fundamental flaws, but that might just be semantic quibbling.   (To me, &quot;fundamental flaws&quot; are errors so deeply ingrained that no reasonable effort can fix them, whereas limitations can be pushed back or removed without corrupting the core.  Others may view these terms differently.)  I&#039;ve also found that the vast majority of layouts used on the web are quite achievable with CSS, and most can be accomplished with minimal or no workarounds.  Mine is not a universal view, but then, whose is?

Still, are certainly limitations, and I think the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/&quot;&gt;CSS Advanced Layout module&lt;/a&gt; (which I&#039;ve &lt;em&gt;got&lt;/em&gt; to find time to write about) has the potential to push those limitations back quite far.

Some will complain that this isn&#039;t an answer since it will take years for the layout module to be implemented, but that was true of almost everything in CSS at one time or another.  Positioning, advanced selectors, pure CSS layouts on commercial sites, any kind of non-table layout at all, print styling... all these things were, at one time, derided as &quot;pie in the sky&quot; and &quot;so far in the future they&#039;ll never get here&quot;.  And yet they did.

In fact, I&#039;d love to see the IE team implement the advanced layout module ahead of everyone else (say, in the next major update of IE after IE7) and spur the other browsers to catch up.  That would be &lt;em&gt;awesome&lt;/em&gt;.

I can&#039;t speak to SuperSheep23&#039;s perception of the CSS Working Group, as I don&#039;t know what he proposed nor how he did it.  I don&#039;t even know that he talked to the WG---it&#039;s more likely he discussed things on www-style, which is open to all.  But I don&#039;t know, so I can&#039;t comment specifically.  I left the WG about two years ago, so if he&#039;s talked to them since then, I missed it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41140" rel="nofollow">Maurice</a>:</p>
<p>I read some of the comments on Dvorak&#8217;s post, and saw many of SuperSheep23&#8217;s posts.  I&#8217;m not interesting in rebutting everyone who finds fault with CSS.  Some are on target, some are partly on target, and some are way off target.</p>
<p>As for SuperSheep23, he&#8217;s right that some layouts are very difficult in CSS.  Who could deny this?  I would characterize this situation as a set of limitations rather than fundamental flaws, but that might just be semantic quibbling.   (To me, &#8220;fundamental flaws&#8221; are errors so deeply ingrained that no reasonable effort can fix them, whereas limitations can be pushed back or removed without corrupting the core.  Others may view these terms differently.)  I&#8217;ve also found that the vast majority of layouts used on the web are quite achievable with CSS, and most can be accomplished with minimal or no workarounds.  Mine is not a universal view, but then, whose is?</p>
<p>Still, are certainly limitations, and I think the <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-layout/">CSS Advanced Layout module</a> (which I&#8217;ve <em>got</em> to find time to write about) has the potential to push those limitations back quite far.</p>
<p>Some will complain that this isn&#8217;t an answer since it will take years for the layout module to be implemented, but that was true of almost everything in CSS at one time or another.  Positioning, advanced selectors, pure CSS layouts on commercial sites, any kind of non-table layout at all, print styling&#8230; all these things were, at one time, derided as &#8220;pie in the sky&#8221; and &#8220;so far in the future they&#8217;ll never get here&#8221;.  And yet they did.</p>
<p>In fact, I&#8217;d love to see the IE team implement the advanced layout module ahead of everyone else (say, in the next major update of IE after IE7) and spur the other browsers to catch up.  That would be <em>awesome</em>.</p>
<p>I can&#8217;t speak to SuperSheep23&#8217;s perception of the CSS Working Group, as I don&#8217;t know what he proposed nor how he did it.  I don&#8217;t even know that he talked to the WG&#8212;it&#8217;s more likely he discussed things on www-style, which is open to all.  But I don&#8217;t know, so I can&#8217;t comment specifically.  I left the WG about two years ago, so if he&#8217;s talked to them since then, I missed it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41208</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 18:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41208</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-40432&quot;&gt;Orion Adrian&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I think it does a disservice to the entire web community to dismiss problems with CSS, saying if you don&quot;t like it don&quot;t use it.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Maybe you&#039;re referring to someone else, but as for me, I did no such thing.  What I basically said was that the cascade is central to Cascading Style Sheets-- what with it being in the name and all-- and if you don&#039;t like how it operates, then CSS is not for you.  I could say the same thing about inheritance, which is probably what Dvorak was really upset about anyway.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
People who don&quot;t like the way certain aspects of CSS operate may have ideas (myself included) in how to improve it. Why not hear what we have to say?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I always do.  Whether I agree with a given idea is, of course, another matter entirely, but I always listen to and look at people&#039;s ideas for improving CSS.  I&#039;ve championed a few of them myself, as it happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-40432">Orion Adrian</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I think it does a disservice to the entire web community to dismiss problems with CSS, saying if you don&#8221;t like it don&#8221;t use it.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Maybe you&#8217;re referring to someone else, but as for me, I did no such thing.  What I basically said was that the cascade is central to Cascading Style Sheets&#8211; what with it being in the name and all&#8211; and if you don&#8217;t like how it operates, then CSS is not for you.  I could say the same thing about inheritance, which is probably what Dvorak was really upset about anyway.</p>
<blockquote><p>
People who don&#8221;t like the way certain aspects of CSS operate may have ideas (myself included) in how to improve it. Why not hear what we have to say?
</p></blockquote>
<p>I always do.  Whether I agree with a given idea is, of course, another matter entirely, but I always listen to and look at people&#8217;s ideas for improving CSS.  I&#8217;ve championed a few of them myself, as it happens.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Darrin H.</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41150</link>
		<dc:creator>Darrin H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 07:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41150</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never been able to take anything Dvorak says with any degree of seriousness.  Troll is too fine a word for him, I prefer the term ignorant naysayer.

From somebody that is more newbie than pro, CSS is much like chess.  It&#039;s easy to learn, but difficult to truly master.  Blaming browser inconsistancies on CSS is much like blaming auto accidents on car manufacturers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve never been able to take anything Dvorak says with any degree of seriousness.  Troll is too fine a word for him, I prefer the term ignorant naysayer.</p>
<p>From somebody that is more newbie than pro, CSS is much like chess.  It&#8217;s easy to learn, but difficult to truly master.  Blaming browser inconsistancies on CSS is much like blaming auto accidents on car manufacturers.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Maurice Williams</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-41140</link>
		<dc:creator>Maurice Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 04:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-41140</guid>
		<description>Just wondering if you&#039;ve read the comments to the Dvorak article, particularly those of &quot;SuperSheep23.&quot; He charges that CSS is broken when it comes to layout. He makes this charge:

&quot;CSS has fundamental flaws. Seriously. While Dvorak may have missed most of them, they still exist and I&#039;ve brought a few of them up here. The CSS working group has no interest in correcting them as they don&#039;t see anything wrong with the current CSS. Mostly, I think it&#039;s that they&#039;re unwilling to make significant change because they don&#039;t have the time. They admit this. This tells me that the fact that the working group relies heavily on free labor and volunteers is probably a bad design. That&#039;s why I have more hope for Microsoft and Sun as they can pay people to come up with technologies to submit to the ECMA, ISO or ANSI.&quot;

&quot;Again, I tried the proper route taking my concerns to the working group. They deny the existence of a problem. So I&#039;m left with the idea of writing a new spec that now has to leverage CSS out completely. Not something I&#039;m looking forward to, but I start by presenting the idea that there&#039;s something wrong that needs fixing.&quot;

Any rebuttal?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wondering if you&#8217;ve read the comments to the Dvorak article, particularly those of &#8220;SuperSheep23.&#8221; He charges that CSS is broken when it comes to layout. He makes this charge:</p>
<p>&#8220;CSS has fundamental flaws. Seriously. While Dvorak may have missed most of them, they still exist and I&#8217;ve brought a few of them up here. The CSS working group has no interest in correcting them as they don&#8217;t see anything wrong with the current CSS. Mostly, I think it&#8217;s that they&#8217;re unwilling to make significant change because they don&#8217;t have the time. They admit this. This tells me that the fact that the working group relies heavily on free labor and volunteers is probably a bad design. That&#8217;s why I have more hope for Microsoft and Sun as they can pay people to come up with technologies to submit to the ECMA, ISO or ANSI.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Again, I tried the proper route taking my concerns to the working group. They deny the existence of a problem. So I&#8217;m left with the idea of writing a new spec that now has to leverage CSS out completely. Not something I&#8217;m looking forward to, but I start by presenting the idea that there&#8217;s something wrong that needs fixing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Any rebuttal?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Channy&#8217;s Blog &#187; Dvorak, 엿같은 CSS</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comment-40996</link>
		<dc:creator>Channy&#8217;s Blog &#187; Dvorak, 엿같은 CSS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Jul 2006 20:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=755#comment-40996</guid>
		<description>[...] 흡. 제 블로그 사상 최대의 선정적 제목인 것 같습니다만 이건 유명한 칼럼니스트인 존 드보락(John Dvorak)의 최근 칼럼 Why CSS Bugs Me라는 글 때문입니다. 존 드보락이 얼마나 유명한지는 아시는 분은 다 아실 겁니다. 아마 자신이 워드 프레스를 기반한 새 블로그를 만들어 봤나 봅니다. 테마를 만지는 중에 CSS라는 게 1996년도에 봤던 그게 아니라는 사실을 알게 된겁니다. CSS를 통해 레이아웃을 하고 id와 class가 짬뽕된 스타일시트에서 꽤 혼란 스러웠겠죠. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 흡. 제 블로그 사상 최대의 선정적 제목인 것 같습니다만 이건 유명한 칼럼니스트인 존 드보락(John Dvorak)의 최근 칼럼 Why CSS Bugs Me라는 글 때문입니다. 존 드보락이 얼마나 유명한지는 아시는 분은 다 아실 겁니다. 아마 자신이 워드 프레스를 기반한 새 블로그를 만들어 봤나 봅니다. 테마를 만지는 중에 CSS라는 게 1996년도에 봤던 그게 아니라는 사실을 알게 된겁니다. CSS를 통해 레이아웃을 하고 id와 class가 짬뽕된 스타일시트에서 꽤 혼란 스러웠겠죠. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
        "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">
<html>
<head profile="http://gmpg.org/xfn/1">
<title>meyerweb.com</title>
<link rel="openid.server" href="http://www.myopenid.com/server">
<link rel="openid.delegate" href="http://emeyer.myopenid.com/">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><link rel="shortcut icon" href="/favicon.ico"><link rel="home" href="http://meyerweb.com/" title="Home" ><link rel="stylesheet" href="http://meyerweb.com/ui/meyerweb.css" type="text/css" media="screen, projection"><link rel="stylesheet" href="http://meyerweb.com/ui/theme.css" type="text/css" media="screen, projection" id="themeLink"><link rel="stylesheet" href="http://meyerweb.com/ui/print.css" type="text/css" media="print"><script src="http://meyerweb.com/ui/addresses.js" type="text/javascript"></script><link rel="stylesheet" href="/ui/wordpress.css" type="text/css" media="screen">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="/ui/tfe.css" type="text/css" media="screen">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="/ui/home.css" type="text/css" media="screen">
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Thoughts From Eric" href="/eric/thoughts/rss2/full" />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Thoughts From Eric (only technical posts)" href="/eric/thoughts/category/tech/rss2/full" />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Thoughts From Eric (only personal posts)" href="/eric/thoughts/category/personal/rss2/full" />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Distractions" href="/eric/thoughts/recent-links/rss2" />
<link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="Excuse of the Day" href="/feeds/excuse/rss20.xml" />
</head>
<body id="www-meyerweb-com" class="hpg">

<div id="sitemast"><h1><a href="/"><span>meyerweb</span>.com</a></h1></div><div id="search"><h4>Exploration</h4><!-- SiteSearch Google --><form method="get" action="http://www.google.com/custom" target="_top"><div><input type="hidden" name="domains" value="meyerweb.com"></input><label for="sbb" style="display: none">Submit search form</label><input type="submit" name="sa" value="Google Search" id="sbb"></input><label for="sbi" style="display: none">Enter your search terms</label><input type="text" name="q" size="31" maxlength="255" value="" id="sbi"></input><p><input type="radio" name="sitesearch" value="meyerweb.com" checked id="ss1"></input><label for="ss1" title="Search meyerweb.com">meyerweb.com</label><input type="radio" name="sitesearch" value="" id="ss0"></input><label for="ss0" title="Search the Web">Web</label></p><input type="hidden" name="client" value="pub-3772084027748653"></input><input type="hidden" name="forid" value="1"></input><input type="hidden" name="ie" value="ISO-8859-1"></input><input type="hidden" name="oe" value="ISO-8859-1"></input><input type="hidden" name="safe" value="active"></input><input type="hidden" name="cof" value="GALT:#008000;GL:1;DIV:#336699;VLC:663399;AH:center;BGC:FFFFFF;LBGC:336699;ALC:0000FF;LC:0000FF;T:000000;GFNT:0000FF;GIMP:0000FF;FORID:1"></input><input type="hidden" name="hl" value="en"></input></div></form><!-- SiteSearch Google --><!-- <form method="get" action="http://www.google.com/custom"><div><input type="submit" name="sa" value="Search"><input type="text" name="q" size="20" maxlength="255" value=""><input type="hidden" name="sitesearch" value="meyerweb.com"></div></form><small><a href="http://www.google.com/search">Powered by Google</a></small> --></div><div id="main"><div class="skipper">Skip to: <a href="#extra">site navigation/presentation</a></div><div class="skipper">Skip to: <a href="#thoughts">Thoughts From Eric</a></div>
<div id="thoughts">


<div class="entry">
<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Dvoraked">Dvoraked</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Wed 26 Jul 2006</li>
<li class="time">1331</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/css/" title="View all posts in CSS" rel="category tag">CSS</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/07/26/dvoraked/#comments">51 responses</a></li>
<li></li><li></li></ul>

<div class="text">
<p>
A couple of weeks back, I was hanging out in a New York hotel lobby with <a href="http://tantek.com/" rel="friend colleague muse met">Tantek</a>, who was either working on <a href="http://tantek.com/presentations/2006/07/what-are-microformats/">his AEA slides</a> or enhancing the overall usefulness of the web in his spare time; I&#8217;m not sure which.  On the far wall, a plasma display ran CNN continually, softly, offering up such choice crawl text as &#8220;N. Korea Missile Test Fallout&#8221;.  One of the stories running was about alleged plagiarism on the part of Ann Coulter.
</p>
<p>
We got into a brief discussion over whether such people should be rebutted or ignored.  Tantek took the former position, whereas I took the latter.  My stance is probably a holdover from my long years of Usenet and mailing-list participation, where one of my most iron-clad rules is &#8220;Don&#8217;t feed the trolls&#8221;.  Better they starve for lack of attention, that&#8217;s how I see it.  Perhaps this is a defensible strategy in the &#8220;real world&#8221;, and perhaps not, but I will freely admit that it&#8217;s one of my default behaviors.
</p>
<p>
Thus, my first instinct was to completely ignore John Dvorak&#8217;s <a href="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1987181,00.asp" title="Why CSS Bugs Me">screed about CSS</a>.  Mr. Dvorak is an admitted troll, and so my default tendency is to simply ignore him.  But &#8220;troll&#8221; is, in my world, an alternate spelling for &#8220;fool&#8221;, and as <a href="http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/2371">Winston Churchill reminded us</a>, one of the great lessons of life is to know that even fools are sometimes right.
</p>
<p>
So is Mr. Dvorak right?  Not in what he has to say, no, but there is still something there worth hearing.
</p>
<p>
It turns out that none of his complaints about CSS are really valid, even when you consider only the ones that have a factual basis.  Sure, he can complain about the cascade being confusing, but that&#8217;s like criticizing Windows because of all those stupid windows that open up everywhere and get in the way of the desktop wallpaper.  It&#8217;s an inherent feature of the system: either accept it and move on, or reject it and walk away, but don&#8217;t waste your time complaining about it.  The best part, of course, is where he blames CSS for inconsistent browser implementations, which is rather like criticizing Microsoft because Windows doesn&#8217;t run properly on a computer whose processor isn&#8217;t compatible with Intel&#8217;s architecture.
</p>
<p>
But step back and let your eyesight blur a bit, and the shape of a worthwhile point begins to emerge.  The closest Mr. Dvorak gets to expressing it, possibly by accident, is this sentence: <q cite="http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1987181,00.asp">&#8220;Can someone explain to me exactly what kind of &#8217;standard&#8217; CSS is, anyway?&#8221;</q>
</p>
<p>
I could do so, of course, as could most of you, but that&#8217;s not the issue.  What we&#8217;re seeing here is the initial reaction of a CSS newbie, not too different from many others when they first begin to style, and all brought closer to home by the high-profile nature of the newbie.  (Whatever you may think of Mr. Dvorak, he has prominence in the industry.)  CSS is not as hard as some make it out to be, but it isn&#8217;t easy as cake, either.
</p>
<p>
A good part of that problem is the natural expectation that all browsers should act the same.  It&#8217;s a strange thing to expect if you&#8217;ve been in the field long enough, since browsers have never really been consistent on anything, from HTML error handling to PNG support.  But someone who&#8217;s coming in fresh is almost certainly going to expect that if they do things a certain way, the result just works.  Why would one expect anything less?
</p>
<p>
That&#8217;s why the <a href="http://webstandards.org/">Web Standards Project</a> was founded, of course; and its existence, history, and current efforts put paid to Mr. Dvorak&#8217;s assertion that nothing is being done.  As I&#8217;ve said, none of his individual points are on target.  What his outburst does is remind us of the problem to which so many have grown numb, and which we still&#8212;for all the progress that has been made&#8212;face on a daily basis.  Consequently, it reminds us to keep advocating for greater consistency between browsers, to praise the efforts of browser makers in that direction, and to help them correct their course when they move in the wrong direction&#8212;and to do so constructively, not destructively.  For while we may gain insights from the rantings of trolls, we should never be so foolish as to adopt their tactics.
</p>
</div>

</div>

</div>
<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

</div><div id="extra"><div class="panel" id="archipelago"><h4>Identity Archipelago</h4><ul><li><a href="http://flickr.com/photos/meyerweb/" rel="me">Flickr</a></li><li><a href="http://twitter.com/meyerweb/" rel="me">Twitter</a></li><li><a href="http://dopplr.com/traveller/meyerweb">Dopplr</a></li><li><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/meyerweb" rel="me">LinkedIn</a></li><li><a href="http://technorati.com/profile/emeyer" rel="me">Technorati</a></li></ul></div><div class="panel" id="pointers"><h4>Projects Elsewhere</h4><ul><li><a href="http://aneventapart.com/">An Event Apart</a></li><li><a href="http://complexspiral.com/">Complex Spiral Consulting</a></li><li><a href="http://www.webassist.com/go/css/emeyer/">CSS Sculptor</a></li><li><a href="http://css-discuss.org/">css-discuss</a></li><li><a href="http://microformats.org/">Microformats</a></li><li><a href="http://s5project.org/">S5</a></li></ul></div><div class="panel" id="tour"><ul><li><a href="http://fray.com/issue3/"><img src="http://fray.com/images/i3c.gif" alt="Fray Contributor (Issue 3: Sex &amp; Death)" /></a></li><!-- <li><a href="http://www.webassist.com/go/css/emeyer/"><img src="/pix/CS_ad_180x109.jpg" alt="CSS Sculptor for Dreamweaver" style="max-width: 100%;" /></a></li> --></ul></div><div class="panel">
<h4>Recently Tweeted</h4>
<p class="more"><a href="http://twitter.com/meyerweb">see more</a></p>
<p>I think the fortune in my Chinese fortune cookie was written by Grover Norquist.  I bet he's getting paid for those off the books. <small>&#8211;tweeted 3 hours, 41 minutes ago</small></p>
</div><div id="sideblog" class="panel">
<h4>Distractions</h4>
<p class="more">
<a href="/eric/thoughts/recent-links/">archive</a>
</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://tweetagewasteland.com/2010/03/my-head-is-in-the-cloud/" title="March 18 | &#8220;I sense that my addiction to the realtime stream is only making room for the consumption of a faster stream.&#8221;">My Head is in the Cloud</a> <small>[via <a href="http://daringfireball.net/">John</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://8bitnyc.com/" title="March 17 | All of a sudden I want to establish a mission in Central Park and negotiate with the natives for gold and food.">8-Bit NYC</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFicqklGuB0&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="March 12 | Wry comment expressing my appreciation of the creative derivativeness of this video and its uncanny accuracy in mocking common tropes.">Academy Award Winning Movie Trailer</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414TmP12WAU" title="March 9 | &#8220;Apple juice&#8230; for half price!&#8221;  More like twice PRICELESS.  (Note: If you&#8217;re at work, don your headphones.)">Happy in Paraguay</a> <small>[via <a href="http://unstoppablerobotninja.com/">Ethan</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V5ubAOeOBk&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="February 10 | This is approximately the best thing ever.">U900 -Walk Don&#8217;t Run (Isogabamaware)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201002/sifr_default_css_hides_content_from_at_least_one_screen_reader/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A 456bereastreet %28456 Berea Street%29" title="February 8 | -9999px comes through again, but I really wish we were beyond that kind of thing.">sIFR default CSS hides content from at least one screen reader</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20100117064356428" title="February 8 | Storing this for future use.">Take a picture with the iSight camera when a folder is opened</a></li>
<li><a href="http://mingle2.com/blog/view/web-developer-mind" title="February 4 | Mostly valid.  (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?)">The Mind of a Web Developer: An Illustrated Diagram</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/news/science_channel_refuses_to_dumb" title="January 28 | &#8220;Punkin Chunkin, for Christ&#8217;s sake&#8230; What more do you people want?&#8221;">Science Channel Refuses To Dumb Down Science Any Further</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.mailchimp.com/blog/project-omnivore-declassified/" title="January 27 | Sounds like quite a feat.  But I wonder how we&#8217;d feel if Microsoft or Google announced the same kind of thing on their e-mail services.">MailChimp&#8217;s Project Omnivore: Declassified</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/25/carolyn-maloney/congresswoman-says-democratic-presidents-create-mo/" title="January 26 | &#8220;Obviously, luck matters a lot, but when there is a consistent pattern over more than 60 years, it starts to look like more than just luck.&#8221;">Congresswoman says Democratic presidents create more private-sector jobs</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_mali_what_teachers_make.html" title="January 25 | Truth.">Taylor Mali: What teachers make</a></li>
<li><a href="http://notebook.johnmartz.com/how-websites-work?c=1" title="January 22 | At last, the truth is out and I can stop pretending:  beatific monkeys are what makes it all go.">How websites work</a></li>
</ul>
</div>
<div class="panel" id="advisory">
<div class="guarded">
<a href="http://blogadvisorysystem.com/"><img src="/pix/bas/guarded.png" alt="Blog Advisory System Alert Level: Guarded"></a>
</div>
</div>

<div class="panel" id="excuse">
<h4>The <a href="/feeds/excuse/">excuse of the day</a> is</h4>
<p>Chrome</p>
</div>

<div class="panel" id="extras">
<h4>Extras</h4>
<ul>
<li><a href="/feeds/">Feeds</a> &#8226;</li>
<li><a href="/eric/faq.html">FAQ</a> &#8226;</li>
<li><a href="/family.html">Family</a></li>
</ul>
</div>

</div>

<div id="navigate">
<h4>Navigation</h4>
<ul id="navlinks">
<li id="archLink"><a href="/eric/thoughts/">Archives</a></li>
<li id="cssLink"><a href="/eric/css/">CSS</a></li>
<li id="toolsLink"><a href="/eric/tools/">Toolbox</a></li>
<li id="writeLink"><a href="/eric/writing.html">Writing</a></li>
<li id="speakLink"><a href="/eric/talks/">Speaking</a></li>
<li id="otherLink"><a href="/other/">Leftovers</a></li>
<li id="aboutsite"><a href="/ui/about.html">About this site</a></li>
</ul>
</div>

<div id="footer">
<p class="sosumi">All contents of this site, unless otherwise noted, are &copy;1995-2008 <strong>Eric A. and Kathryn S. Meyer</strong>.  All Rights Reserved.</p>
<p>"<a href="/eric/thoughts/">Thoughts From Eric</a>" is powered by the &uuml;bercool <a href="http://wordpress.org/">WordPress</a></p>
</div>
</body>
</html>
