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	<title>Comments on: Angry Indeed</title>
	<atom:link href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 15 Mar 2010 16:37:39 -0400</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Reinventando o HTML: o futuro da linguagem de hypertexto ≈ Revolução Etc</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-494724</link>
		<dc:creator>Reinventando o HTML: o futuro da linguagem de hypertexto ≈ Revolução Etc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Mar 2010 11:22:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-494724</guid>
		<description>[...] mostrou-se como um pacificador e visionário por um lado e um pouco conservador de outro. Enquanto Eric Meyer chamou os avanços de iniciativas como Microformats e WHATWG de &#8220;progresso&#8221;, Tim nem cita ou [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mostrou-se como um pacificador e visionário por um lado e um pouco conservador de outro. Enquanto Eric Meyer chamou os avanços de iniciativas como Microformats e WHATWG de &#8220;progresso&#8221;, Tim nem cita ou [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rechtsanwalt Strafrecht</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-134699</link>
		<dc:creator>Rechtsanwalt Strafrecht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Apr 2007 22:59:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-134699</guid>
		<description>The proceedings of many of the W3C working groups (including meeting records) are public; e.g. XML core, ws-policy, DAWG/SPARQL. I wonder if the problem is not that W3C is “very closed” but that it&quot;s very big; as you say, there&quot;s so much on the web site that it&quot;s hard to find anything.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The proceedings of many of the W3C working groups (including meeting records) are public; e.g. XML core, ws-policy, DAWG/SPARQL. I wonder if the problem is not that W3C is “very closed” but that it&#8221;s very big; as you say, there&#8221;s so much on the web site that it&#8221;s hard to find anything.</p>
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		<title>By: Learning the World &#187; To Hell with Joe Clark</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-93982</link>
		<dc:creator>Learning the World &#187; To Hell with Joe Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Feb 2007 21:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-93982</guid>
		<description>[...] If you want reform then do it from the inside &#8212; the subtlety of subversion is more effective than revolution. Comment on Eric Meyer&#8217;s blog [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] If you want reform then do it from the inside &mdash; the subtlety of subversion is more effective than revolution. Comment on Eric Meyer&rsquo;s blog [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Albo P. Fosssa</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-52463</link>
		<dc:creator>Albo P. Fosssa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-52463</guid>
		<description>Browsing links to and from this blog today - quite an education! Especially Eric&#039;s comments, surprising (but convincing) from such a well-known expert!

I believe in standards to a degree. Web pages have to communicate first, then maybe put on a show second. But then, what is, being too &quot;nitpicky&quot;? Is it too nitpicky to say &quot;different than&quot; but *not* to nitpicky to say &quot;you is&quot;? And who&#039;s the source of such a standard: the OED, or Webster&#039;s?

If we get rid of the W3, then each browser is free to go its own way, and my web page isn&#039;t guaranteed to show up on cousin Bill&#039;s browser in Michigan: what a shame!

I want to be able to read Eric&#039;s lessons on CSS and maybe even not have to read the parts he wrote on CSS hacks and his notes about how IE misinterprets the box model.

As far as standards, I think the W3 has an at least titular role (somewhat recognized by vendors) as does the UN (somewhat recognized by nations).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Browsing links to and from this blog today &#8211; quite an education! Especially Eric&#8217;s comments, surprising (but convincing) from such a well-known expert!</p>
<p>I believe in standards to a degree. Web pages have to communicate first, then maybe put on a show second. But then, what is, being too &#8220;nitpicky&#8221;? Is it too nitpicky to say &#8220;different than&#8221; but *not* to nitpicky to say &#8220;you is&#8221;? And who&#8217;s the source of such a standard: the OED, or Webster&#8217;s?</p>
<p>If we get rid of the W3, then each browser is free to go its own way, and my web page isn&#8217;t guaranteed to show up on cousin Bill&#8217;s browser in Michigan: what a shame!</p>
<p>I want to be able to read Eric&#8217;s lessons on CSS and maybe even not have to read the parts he wrote on CSS hacks and his notes about how IE misinterprets the box model.</p>
<p>As far as standards, I think the W3 has an at least titular role (somewhat recognized by vendors) as does the UN (somewhat recognized by nations).</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Tremblay</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-50694</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Tremblay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 20:37:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-50694</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t imagine most folk have any sense of what my 1-line bio means by &quot;compulsively tech_doc&quot; ... and that&#039;s ok. &quot;I am not obliged to entertain you.&quot;

I just went through &quot;Leaving W3C QA&quot; again, just for the sheer pleasure of it. Lovely ... re-vitalizes my faith in human nature, it does. I definitely owe Bjoern a tankard of his favorite.

Who, &lt;i&gt;who, &lt;b&gt;who&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; took note of the effort evidenced in that document? A DavidB would, a BrendanE would, a Hixie would ... like &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; would ... but that&#039;s about it. Know what? I&#039;ll bet TimbBL would, too.

But there&#039;s something else operating here too: my gawd, maybe you don&#039;t realize the awe you inspire ... &quot;Box Model Hack&quot; and such. You and tantek? Guys like you are what inspired me (past tense, note) to keep sloggin&#039;. (So on the day I set up and read through a 250 page technical document and produce with a long list of quibbles large and small. *shrug* Nobody much cares? Fine. But &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;I&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; know that I&#039;ve guarded your back. Now&#039;days you got bigger fish to fry? *shrug* Hey, no blame. But: I quit. Past tense. Done deal ... a long while back.)

Copying texts into illuminated tomes was humble work. Such is it with tech_docs.

&quot;Only notice when the well is dry.&quot; Yaaa, well I&#039; been in &quot;camel&quot; mode for a lotta years.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t imagine most folk have any sense of what my 1-line bio means by &#8220;compulsively tech_doc&#8221; &#8230; and that&#8217;s ok. &#8220;I am not obliged to entertain you.&#8221;</p>
<p>I just went through &#8220;Leaving W3C QA&#8221; again, just for the sheer pleasure of it. Lovely &#8230; re-vitalizes my faith in human nature, it does. I definitely owe Bjoern a tankard of his favorite.</p>
<p>Who, <i>who, <b>who</b></i> took note of the effort evidenced in that document? A DavidB would, a BrendanE would, a Hixie would &#8230; like <i>you</i> would &#8230; but that&#8217;s about it. Know what? I&#8217;ll bet TimbBL would, too.</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s something else operating here too: my gawd, maybe you don&#8217;t realize the awe you inspire &#8230; &#8220;Box Model Hack&#8221; and such. You and tantek? Guys like you are what inspired me (past tense, note) to keep sloggin&#8217;. (So on the day I set up and read through a 250 page technical document and produce with a long list of quibbles large and small. *shrug* Nobody much cares? Fine. But <i><b>I</b></i> know that I&#8217;ve guarded your back. Now&#8217;days you got bigger fish to fry? *shrug* Hey, no blame. But: I quit. Past tense. Done deal &#8230; a long while back.)</p>
<p>Copying texts into illuminated tomes was humble work. Such is it with tech_docs.</p>
<p>&#8220;Only notice when the well is dry.&#8221; Yaaa, well I&#8217; been in &#8220;camel&#8221; mode for a lotta years.</p>
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		<title>By: Qual o problema da W3C? - Bruno Torres ponto net</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-45656</link>
		<dc:creator>Qual o problema da W3C? - Bruno Torres ponto net</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-45656</guid>
		<description>[...] Eric Meyer - Angry Indeed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Eric Meyer &#8211; Angry Indeed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Patty Bradley-Diehl &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ongoing Conversation about the W3C</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-45599</link>
		<dc:creator>Patty Bradley-Diehl &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Ongoing Conversation about the W3C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Aug 2006 20:21:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-45599</guid>
		<description>[...] Wrong again. Here are links to the debate so far: Leaving W3C QA Dev. from Bjoern Hoehrmann on 2006-07-16 (public-qa-dev@w3.org from July 2006 Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : An angry fix Misplaced Anger: A Rebuttal to Zeldman&quot;s Criticism of the W3C - The Web Standards Project Molly E. Holzschlag Eric&#8217;s Archived Thoughts: Angry Indeed [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Wrong again. Here are links to the debate so far: Leaving W3C QA Dev. from Bjoern Hoehrmann on 2006-07-16 (public-qa-dev@w3.org from July 2006 Jeffrey Zeldman Presents : An angry fix Misplaced Anger: A Rebuttal to Zeldman&#8221;s Criticism of the W3C &#8211; The Web Standards Project Molly E. Holzschlag Eric&#8217;s Archived Thoughts: Angry Indeed [...]</p>
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		<title>By: me</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-44193</link>
		<dc:creator>me</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-44193</guid>
		<description>While everyone is complaining about the w3c, I still think they have an important role in this story! What will happen if everyone is following their own standards (whatwg, ietf, w3c, microformats, ...)? That&#039;s like going back to the old days; Microsoft will dictate standard A and Mozilla standard B, and there &#039;ll probably be some small browsers that have yet an other agenda. Indeed the W3C is moving very slowly, but it is still moving. The quality of the standards isn&#039;t always superb, but there can always be a next version to improve upon the previous version. Even though they have to play catch up sometimes (eg. xmlhttprequest). There is still a lot of work to do in the browser-department before all the existing standards are fully implemented.

I really don&#039;t believe that decentralisation of standards is a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While everyone is complaining about the w3c, I still think they have an important role in this story! What will happen if everyone is following their own standards (whatwg, ietf, w3c, microformats, &#8230;)? That&#8217;s like going back to the old days; Microsoft will dictate standard A and Mozilla standard B, and there &#8216;ll probably be some small browsers that have yet an other agenda. Indeed the W3C is moving very slowly, but it is still moving. The quality of the standards isn&#8217;t always superb, but there can always be a next version to improve upon the previous version. Even though they have to play catch up sometimes (eg. xmlhttprequest). There is still a lot of work to do in the browser-department before all the existing standards are fully implemented.</p>
<p>I really don&#8217;t believe that decentralisation of standards is a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Grancomo &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ¿W3C desconectado?</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43949</link>
		<dc:creator>Grancomo &#187; Blog Archive &#187; ¿W3C desconectado?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 16:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43949</guid>
		<description>[...] Entre los expertos reconocidos del diseño web, personas que han influido decisivamente en la actual web, se encuentran desde la postura supercrítica de los fundadores del Webstandards Group Jeffrey Zeldman o Eric Meyer que denuncian la lentitud y distancia del W3C respecto los problemas reales de la comunidad web. Beholden to its corporate paymasters who alone can afford membership, the W3C seems increasingly detached from ordinary designers and developers. Truth be told, we and our practical concerns never drove the organization. But after ordinary designers and developers spent nearly a decade selling web standards to browser makers and developing best practices around accessibility and semantics, one hoped the W3C might realize that there was value in occasionally consulting its user base. &#8211; Jeffrey Zeldman To be fair, the W3C solicits community feedback before finalizing its recommendations. But asking people to comment on something that is nearly finished is not the same as finding out what they need and soliciting their collaboration from the start. &#8211; Jeffrey Zeldman Let&quot;s be frank: a whole lot of people who believe passionately in the web&quot;s potential and want to see it advance fought for years to make that happen through the W3C, and finally decided they&quot;d had enough. One by one, I saw some of the best minds of my generation soured by the W3C; one by one, the embittered generals marched forward, determined to make some sort of progress. &#8211; Eric Meyer [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Entre los expertos reconocidos del diseño web, personas que han influido decisivamente en la actual web, se encuentran desde la postura supercrítica de los fundadores del Webstandards Group Jeffrey Zeldman o Eric Meyer que denuncian la lentitud y distancia del W3C respecto los problemas reales de la comunidad web. Beholden to its corporate paymasters who alone can afford membership, the W3C seems increasingly detached from ordinary designers and developers. Truth be told, we and our practical concerns never drove the organization. But after ordinary designers and developers spent nearly a decade selling web standards to browser makers and developing best practices around accessibility and semantics, one hoped the W3C might realize that there was value in occasionally consulting its user base. &#8211; Jeffrey Zeldman To be fair, the W3C solicits community feedback before finalizing its recommendations. But asking people to comment on something that is nearly finished is not the same as finding out what they need and soliciting their collaboration from the start. &#8211; Jeffrey Zeldman Let&#8221;s be frank: a whole lot of people who believe passionately in the web&#8221;s potential and want to see it advance fought for years to make that happen through the W3C, and finally decided they&#8221;d had enough. One by one, I saw some of the best minds of my generation soured by the W3C; one by one, the embittered generals marched forward, determined to make some sort of progress. &#8211; Eric Meyer [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Yeah, Nyman&#8217;s back - Robert&#8217;s talk</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43938</link>
		<dc:creator>Yeah, Nyman&#8217;s back - Robert&#8217;s talk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 12:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43938</guid>
		<description>[...] W3C and their influence were questioned by Zeldman in An angry fix and followed up by Eric Meyer in Angry Indeed. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] W3C and their influence were questioned by Zeldman in An angry fix and followed up by Eric Meyer in Angry Indeed. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43898</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:59:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43898</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43785&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shelley&lt;/a&gt;: irony, yes, although not much more than that.  Blogging isn&#039;t my job, and as much as I&#039;d like to make responding in detail to comments a bigger portion of my life, other things have to take priority.  But responding in detail to comments (and especially to objections) on a specification &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; the job of a Working Group.  If the members of a WG don&#039;t have the time do do their job, then they need to step down.

If you don&#039;t think Jeffrey was clear in what he wanted, you need to read his post again, because what he wants is spelled out.  As for what I want, that will have to wait until I have time to write a follow-up post.

And your bridge analogy wasn&#039;t at all clear to me.  Sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43785" rel="nofollow">Shelley</a>: irony, yes, although not much more than that.  Blogging isn&#8217;t my job, and as much as I&#8217;d like to make responding in detail to comments a bigger portion of my life, other things have to take priority.  But responding in detail to comments (and especially to objections) on a specification <em>is</em> the job of a Working Group.  If the members of a WG don&#8217;t have the time do do their job, then they need to step down.</p>
<p>If you don&#8217;t think Jeffrey was clear in what he wanted, you need to read his post again, because what he wants is spelled out.  As for what I want, that will have to wait until I have time to write a follow-up post.</p>
<p>And your bridge analogy wasn&#8217;t at all clear to me.  Sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Shelley</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43785</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Aug 2006 19:38:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43785</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s irony in your statement about being too busy to respond to comments, Eric, when the lead complaint that kick started all of this from Björn Höhrmann was that the HTML working group was too busy to respond to comments from volunteers. 

I read your post, Zeldman&#039;s, Molly&#039;s, others and I have to ask: what do you want? What exactly do you want from the W3C? How is you want it to change? If you no longer think it&#039;s viable, what would you want in its place? None of you are clear in what you want.

Should we stop, toss W3C out? Go with surival of the fittest tech? Wait until IE7 and Firefox duke it out and then climb over the bodies left over after yet another browser war?

Hunt around for yet more obscure standards organizations, which we can then pack with people who agree with us? Turn it all over to the tech obsessed. 

Letsee -- lets toss JavaScript out and make some form of Python/Ruby hybrid that will be so COOL. Let&#039;s also make sure it&#039;s too hard for the average web page developer: too many of THOSE around. 

Is this what you want? 

I&#039;ve seen the microformat effort as a solution and a replacement, and I can&#039;t believe that any of you are taking this seriously. The microformat effort is an interesting use of technology, but all of it--all of it--is based on the underlying technologies that have coe out of the W3C. That&#039;s like telling a bridge painter, &quot;Hey! You did a great job! You should be an engineer! I&#039;d walk across any bridge you&#039;d build!&quot;

What do you want?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s irony in your statement about being too busy to respond to comments, Eric, when the lead complaint that kick started all of this from Björn Höhrmann was that the HTML working group was too busy to respond to comments from volunteers. </p>
<p>I read your post, Zeldman&#8217;s, Molly&#8217;s, others and I have to ask: what do you want? What exactly do you want from the W3C? How is you want it to change? If you no longer think it&#8217;s viable, what would you want in its place? None of you are clear in what you want.</p>
<p>Should we stop, toss W3C out? Go with surival of the fittest tech? Wait until IE7 and Firefox duke it out and then climb over the bodies left over after yet another browser war?</p>
<p>Hunt around for yet more obscure standards organizations, which we can then pack with people who agree with us? Turn it all over to the tech obsessed. </p>
<p>Letsee &#8212; lets toss JavaScript out and make some form of Python/Ruby hybrid that will be so COOL. Let&#8217;s also make sure it&#8217;s too hard for the average web page developer: too many of THOSE around. </p>
<p>Is this what you want? </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve seen the microformat effort as a solution and a replacement, and I can&#8217;t believe that any of you are taking this seriously. The microformat effort is an interesting use of technology, but all of it&#8211;all of it&#8211;is based on the underlying technologies that have coe out of the W3C. That&#8217;s like telling a bridge painter, &#8220;Hey! You did a great job! You should be an engineer! I&#8217;d walk across any bridge you&#8217;d build!&#8221;</p>
<p>What do you want?</p>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43775</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Easton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43775</guid>
		<description>DOH!! URL for David&#039;s analysis:
http://dbaron.org/log/2006-08#e20060818a</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DOH!! URL for David&#8217;s analysis:<br />
<a href="http://dbaron.org/log/2006-08#e20060818a" rel="nofollow">http://dbaron.org/log/2006-08#e20060818a</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bob Easton</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43774</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob Easton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:14:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43774</guid>
		<description>Speaking of David Baron, you might appreciate his detailed analysis of problems at the W3C.  As usual, David&#039;s thought processes are obvious and highly detailed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of David Baron, you might appreciate his detailed analysis of problems at the W3C.  As usual, David&#8217;s thought processes are obvious and highly detailed.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Budd</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43678</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Budd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Aug 2006 15:00:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comment-43678</guid>
		<description>Dean Jackson wrote:

Suppose you have been given control of the W3C. What would you change?

Well I&#039;d quite like to see CSS 2.1 finished, let alone CSS3. It would also be nice if large member organisations didn&#039;t hold so much sway over the decision making powers of the organisation. Think WCAG 2.0.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dean Jackson wrote:</p>
<p>Suppose you have been given control of the W3C. What would you change?</p>
<p>Well I&#8217;d quite like to see CSS 2.1 finished, let alone CSS3. It would also be nice if large member organisations didn&#8217;t hold so much sway over the decision making powers of the organisation. Think WCAG 2.0.</p>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Angry Indeed">Angry Indeed</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Mon 14 Aug 2006</li>
<li class="time">0837</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/rants/" title="View all posts in Rants" rel="category tag">Rants</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/w3c/" title="View all posts in W3C" rel="category tag">W3C</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/#comments">43 responses</a></li>
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<div class="text">
<p>
In my head, at any rate, it was <a href="http://zeldman.com/" rel="friend colleague met">Jeffrey</a>&#8217;s <a href="http://www.zeldman.com/2006/07/17/an-angry-fix/">angry post</a> that kicked off the latest round of posts about <a href="http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1086387609&amp;count=1">consortium contretemps</a>, even though Jeffrey&#8217;s post was triggered (at least in part) by <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-qa-dev/2006Jul/0011">a message</a> posted to the fairly obscure <a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-qa-dev/">public-qa-dev mailing list</a> by <a href="http://bjoern.hoehrmann.de/">Bj&ouml;rn H&ouml;hrmann</a>, detailing his reasons for leaving the <a href="http://w3.org/">W3C</a>.
</p>
<p>
A little over a week later, there came a <a href="http://www.webstandards.org/2006/07/26/misplaced-anger-a-rebuttal-to-zeldmans-criticism-of-the-w3c/">semi-rebuttal</a> by <a href="http://molly.com/" rel="friend colleague met">Molly</a> over at the <a href="http://webstandards.org/">Web Standards Project</a>, where she talked about a new spirit of &#8220;opening up to new things&#8221;, like <a href="http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/ambition_no3_css-wg.html">adding &#8220;at least one classically trained artist and graphic designer&#8221;</a> to the CSS Working Group (a role that&#8217;s been more or less vacant ever since <a href="http://veen.com/jeff/" rel="friend colleague met">Jeff Veen</a> left the WG over half a decade ago).
</p>
<p>
That&#8217;s great to hear, but what&#8217;s perversely fascinating to me is that in that <em>very same post</em>, Molly herself lists the reasons why Jeffrey&#8217;s anger is in no way misplaced:
</p>

<blockquote cite="http://www.webstandards.org/2006/07/26/misplaced-anger-a-rebuttal-to-zeldmans-criticism-of-the-w3c/">
<p>
Am I defending the W3C&#8217;s slow-to-move process or its over-bureaucratized administration? Its lack of attention and sensitivity to gender (count the women, go ahead, dare you) and racial diversity, its frightening disregard for the real needs of the workaday Web world? Oh no, nor would I want to.
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
It&#8217;s that last point that lends the greatest support to Jeffrey&#8217;s argument:  &#8220;&#8230;frightening disregard for the real needs of the workaday Web world&#8221;.
</p>
<p>
What more really needs to be said?  It&#8217;s the most concise indictment possible that the first part of the W3C&#8217;s mission statement, the fragment they put right on their home page, &#8220;Leading the Web to Its Full Potential&#8230;&#8221;, has been betrayed.
</p>
<p>
Believe me, I&#8217;d prefer things to be otherwise.  I&#8217;m still a strong believer in standards, and for seven years (1997 &#8211; 2004) put my time and energy into supporting and advancing them as a member of the CSS Working Group.  When I left, it was because I didn&#8217;t have the time and energy to contribute any more, and rather than continue to be a deadwood listing on the group&#8217;s roster, I left.  But most of the reason I couldn&#8217;t come up with the time and energy was precisely what Molly articulated.  I no longer believed in the W3C&#8217;s ability to do what it promised, and what I wanted.
</p>
<p>
But the worst part?  None of this is new.  Look back two years, when <a href="http://dbaron.org/log/2004-06#e20040609a">David Baron</a> and <a href="http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roadmap/archives/005632.html">Brendan Eich</a> walked away from a <a href="http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/">W3C Workshop</a> in disgust.  To a large degree, both men walked away from the W3C itself at that point&#8212;and if you&#8217;ve spurred <em>David Baron</em> to turn his back on the web&#8217;s central standards body, then boyo, you&#8217;ve got some deeply serious problems.
</p>
<p>
Let&#8217;s be frank: a whole lot of people who believe passionately in the web&#8217;s potential and want to see it advance fought for years to make that happen through the W3C, and finally decided they&#8217;d had enough.  One by one, I saw some of the best minds of my generation soured by the W3C; one by one, the <a href="http://glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?2004/08/31/533-embittered-generals">embittered generals</a> <a href="http://whatwg.org/">marched forward</a>, determined to make some sort of <a href="http://microformats.org/">progress</a>.
</p>
<p>
Perhaps my eyes have become a touch too jaundiced over the last decade, but I&#8217;m not sure I could disagree more with what Molly claims near the end of her post:
</p>

<blockquote cite="http://www.webstandards.org/2006/07/26/misplaced-anger-a-rebuttal-to-zeldmans-criticism-of-the-w3c/">
<p>
Jeffrey is wrong in his current assessment of the W3C.
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
If only that were so.
</p>
<p>
If the folks at the WaSP believe the Good Ship Consortium is beginning to change course, then I&#8217;m happy for them, really; I&#8217;ll be even more happy if they&#8217;re right.  But when the ship is moving so slowly and has drifted so far out to sea, how much relevance can a change of heading really have?
</p>
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