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	<title>Comments on: W3C Change: Introduction</title>
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	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Miguel</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-55268</link>
		<dc:creator>Miguel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Sep 2006 03:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-55268</guid>
		<description>Thank you Asbjørn Ulsberg. The &lt;a href=&quot;#comment-50676&quot; title=&quot;Comment 3&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;comment on Microsoft&lt;/a&gt; was a little hasty and not thoroughly thought out, in my own humble opinion. Simply removing Microsoft&#039;s input from W3C would set us back some 3-4 years in web standards. IE would go back to proprietary technology and we (as developers) would be left all alone in this mess. Let us read what Mr. Meyers has to say on the subject before saying anything we&#039;ll regret. :) Looking forward to a little extra time off to read these. Thanks in advance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Asbjørn Ulsberg. The <a href="#comment-50676" title="Comment 3" rel="nofollow">comment on Microsoft</a> was a little hasty and not thoroughly thought out, in my own humble opinion. Simply removing Microsoft&#8217;s input from W3C would set us back some 3-4 years in web standards. IE would go back to proprietary technology and we (as developers) would be left all alone in this mess. Let us read what Mr. Meyers has to say on the subject before saying anything we&#8217;ll regret. :) Looking forward to a little extra time off to read these. Thanks in advance.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Asbjørn Ulsberg</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50808</link>
		<dc:creator>Asbjørn Ulsberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 08:58:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50808</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s just as important to have Microsoft on board of W3C as it is for grassroot guys like you and me to be able to contribute. What roles each of us should have, what it should cost and in what way we should be able to contribute is a subject open for lot of discussion, but dismissing Microsoft is stupid. If Microsoft can&#039;t play with us in the W3C, they will still play, but not on anybody&#039;s terms but their own, and that will hurt the web and the standards created for it.

I&#039;m looking forward to reading your upcoming entries with excitement, Eric.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s just as important to have Microsoft on board of W3C as it is for grassroot guys like you and me to be able to contribute. What roles each of us should have, what it should cost and in what way we should be able to contribute is a subject open for lot of discussion, but dismissing Microsoft is stupid. If Microsoft can&#8217;t play with us in the W3C, they will still play, but not on anybody&#8217;s terms but their own, and that will hurt the web and the standards created for it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to reading your upcoming entries with excitement, Eric.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Goddard</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50796</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Goddard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 07:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50796</guid>
		<description>As someone who has read and admired pretty much everything you have published (and this site) for over 6 years, I&#039;m eagerly anticipating your views. 

A small entreaty - please (Mr Smith et al) lets not turn this into an opportunity to bash Microsoft. That&#039;s just sad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone who has read and admired pretty much everything you have published (and this site) for over 6 years, I&#8217;m eagerly anticipating your views. </p>
<p>A small entreaty &#8211; please (Mr Smith et al) lets not turn this into an opportunity to bash Microsoft. That&#8217;s just sad.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael Martin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50705</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 21:46:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50705</guid>
		<description>Cant wait to see what you actually have to say on each topic. Should make for some very good reading. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cant wait to see what you actually have to say on each topic. Should make for some very good reading. :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben Tremblay</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50683</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Tremblay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50683</guid>
		<description>If &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; get blown off ... what happens to those of us with considerably less &quot;star power&quot;? *shakes head* Personality politics ... social pathology ... HeyHo.

Eugene Kim posted &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.eekim.com/blog/collaboration/wrightonaia.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an interesting letter written by Frank Lloyd Wright&lt;/a&gt;, about his (Wright&#039;s) relationship to professional associations. I&#039;m thinking about &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-qa-dev/2006Jul/0011&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Leaving W3C QA Dev&lt;/a&gt;&quot;, of course. I&#039;ve never been one to suffer fools gladly (which cost me) and now, in my later years, I&#039;m even less willing to bend and take it with a smile (if you know what I mean). And yet entities such as associations and committees are the bullwarks of civil society. Until and unless we synthesise alternatives, which isn&#039;t likely any time soon.

My work started with using punched cards to create a database (No, not COBOL, no computer involved: sorted and searched by running knitting needles through holes along the cards&#039; edges.) and continued through VRML and Indymedia. Today I&#039;m grinding away like Spinoza working a lens ... there&#039;s just &lt;i&gt;nothing &lt;b&gt;simple&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; about &quot;drawing attention to effects of the basic problem&quot;. With all the tech we&#039;ve marshalled it&#039;s still (and always?) a matter of discourse. So I&#039;m betting on &quot;People of good will sharing deeply about simple things&quot;.

To become &quot;less and less&quot; relevant ... that&#039;s merely evolution, no? And evolution is the process of selecting adaptive processes, yes? So I suggest it falls to the charismatic and gifted individuals in the community to stand fast as principled practitioners as we create means to reduce the noise (I did DSP for fun ... ham radio, yuh know?) and methods that enhance the signal. More: I&#039;ll suggest we&#039;ve good will enough.

I can just hear the voices ... you&#039;re just mad, and Joel has gone mad ... yoiks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If <i>you</i> get blown off &#8230; what happens to those of us with considerably less &#8220;star power&#8221;? *shakes head* Personality politics &#8230; social pathology &#8230; HeyHo.</p>
<p>Eugene Kim posted <a href="http://www.eekim.com/blog/collaboration/wrightonaia.html" rel="nofollow">an interesting letter written by Frank Lloyd Wright</a>, about his (Wright&#8217;s) relationship to professional associations. I&#8217;m thinking about &#8220;<a href="http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-qa-dev/2006Jul/0011" rel="nofollow">Leaving W3C QA Dev</a>&#8220;, of course. I&#8217;ve never been one to suffer fools gladly (which cost me) and now, in my later years, I&#8217;m even less willing to bend and take it with a smile (if you know what I mean). And yet entities such as associations and committees are the bullwarks of civil society. Until and unless we synthesise alternatives, which isn&#8217;t likely any time soon.</p>
<p>My work started with using punched cards to create a database (No, not COBOL, no computer involved: sorted and searched by running knitting needles through holes along the cards&#8217; edges.) and continued through VRML and Indymedia. Today I&#8217;m grinding away like Spinoza working a lens &#8230; there&#8217;s just <i>nothing <b>simple</b></i> about &#8220;drawing attention to effects of the basic problem&#8221;. With all the tech we&#8217;ve marshalled it&#8217;s still (and always?) a matter of discourse. So I&#8217;m betting on &#8220;People of good will sharing deeply about simple things&#8221;.</p>
<p>To become &#8220;less and less&#8221; relevant &#8230; that&#8217;s merely evolution, no? And evolution is the process of selecting adaptive processes, yes? So I suggest it falls to the charismatic and gifted individuals in the community to stand fast as principled practitioners as we create means to reduce the noise (I did DSP for fun &#8230; ham radio, yuh know?) and methods that enhance the signal. More: I&#8217;ll suggest we&#8217;ve good will enough.</p>
<p>I can just hear the voices &#8230; you&#8217;re just mad, and Joel has gone mad &#8230; yoiks!</p>
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		<title>By: John Smith</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50676</link>
		<dc:creator>John Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50676</guid>
		<description>Expell microsoft and its cronies (and their &#039;donations&#039;) from the W3C and it will get back on track. microsoft is the only one interested in slowing down progress on the web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Expell microsoft and its cronies (and their &#8216;donations&#8217;) from the W3C and it will get back on track. microsoft is the only one interested in slowing down progress on the web.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: pauldwaite</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50675</link>
		<dc:creator>pauldwaite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 18:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50675</guid>
		<description>First, I&#039;d like to propose a whip-round to fund the purchase of a flame-retardant suit for the good Mr Meyer. The guy&#039;s got a child to bring up, we don&#039;t want to lose him to Firey Internet Death.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, I&#8217;d like to propose a whip-round to fund the purchase of a flame-retardant suit for the good Mr Meyer. The guy&#8217;s got a child to bring up, we don&#8217;t want to lose him to Firey Internet Death.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gregor J. Rothfuss</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comment-50666</link>
		<dc:creator>Gregor J. Rothfuss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Sep 2006 17:52:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=763#comment-50666</guid>
		<description>Seems to me they should seriously look at the IETF model. No private mailing lists, no pay to play, all decisions made on the mailing list, not on expensive F2F</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seems to me they should seriously look at the IETF model. No private mailing lists, no pay to play, all decisions made on the mailing list, not on expensive F2F</p>
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<div class="entry">
<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: W3C Change: Introduction">W3C Change: Introduction</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Thu 14 Sep 2006</li>
<li class="time">1201</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/w3c/" title="View all posts in W3C" rel="category tag">W3C</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/14/w3c-change-introduction/#comments">Eight responses</a></li>
<li></li><li></li></ul>

<div class="text">
<p>
When I <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/08/14/angry-indeed/">posted about the W3C</a>, a few people responded with, &#8220;All right, fine, you&#8217;re angry with the W3C.  So what&#8217;s your alternative, smart guy?&#8221;  A fair enough question.
</p>
<p>
While I applaud the efforts of the <a href="http://whatwg.org/">WHAT WG</a> and the <a href="http://microformats.org/">microformats</a> community, I&#8217;m not advocating a complete dismissal of the W3C.  The basic role filled by the W3C, that of being a central meeting place and coordinating body, is an important one.  It&#8217;s also potentially damaging.  Think of it like a central file server at work.  As long as the server is fine, your work can continue.  If it goes offline or, worse, its contents get corrupted, you&#8217;re in a very bad position.
</p>
<p>
When I point to the WHAT WG and microformats, I&#8217;m not holding them up as saviors or replacements.  I&#8217;m simply drawing attention to effects of the basic problem.  Both communities arose because of the nature and (lack of) speed of the W3C and its work.  We could argue about whether or not they should replace the W3C, but the simple fact is that had the W3C been more responsive and in touch with developer needs, they would never have existed in the first place.  They wouldn&#8217;t have had to exist.
</p>
<p>
If the W3C can get back on track, I wouldn&#8217;t want to see it replaced.  If it can&#8217;t, then it will be replaced, no matter what I or anyone else has to say.  That doesn&#8217;t mean it would cease to exist, of course.  It would simply become less and less relevant.  I have some ideas about how the W3C might avoid such a fate, but they aren&#8217;t things that I can cover in a single post.  Instead, I&#8217;ll do it in three parts, and the three topic areas I&#8217;m going to address are:
</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/15/w3c-change-outreach/">Communication between Working Groups and the public</a></li>
<li><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/17/w3c-change-working-groups/">Working Group membership and chartering rules</a></li>
<li><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2006/09/25/w3c-change-full-independence/">The basic operating model of the W3C</a></li>
</ul>
<p>
No small potatoes, those.  It will be interesting to find out what people think of my proposals for each.
</p>
</div>

</div>

</div>
<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

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<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFicqklGuB0&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="March 12 | Wry comment expressing my appreciation of the creative derivativeness of this video and its uncanny accuracy in mocking common tropes.">Academy Award Winning Movie Trailer</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414TmP12WAU" title="March 9 | &#8220;Apple juice&#8230; for half price!&#8221;  More like twice PRICELESS.  (Note: If you&#8217;re at work, don your headphones.)">Happy in Paraguay</a> <small>[via <a href="http://unstoppablerobotninja.com/">Ethan</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V5ubAOeOBk&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="February 10 | This is approximately the best thing ever.">U900 -Walk Don&#8217;t Run (Isogabamaware)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201002/sifr_default_css_hides_content_from_at_least_one_screen_reader/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A 456bereastreet %28456 Berea Street%29" title="February 8 | -9999px comes through again, but I really wish we were beyond that kind of thing.">sIFR default CSS hides content from at least one screen reader</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20100117064356428" title="February 8 | Storing this for future use.">Take a picture with the iSight camera when a folder is opened</a></li>
<li><a href="http://mingle2.com/blog/view/web-developer-mind" title="February 4 | Mostly valid.  (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?)">The Mind of a Web Developer: An Illustrated Diagram</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/news/science_channel_refuses_to_dumb" title="January 28 | &#8220;Punkin Chunkin, for Christ&#8217;s sake&#8230; What more do you people want?&#8221;">Science Channel Refuses To Dumb Down Science Any Further</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.mailchimp.com/blog/project-omnivore-declassified/" title="January 27 | Sounds like quite a feat.  But I wonder how we&#8217;d feel if Microsoft or Google announced the same kind of thing on their e-mail services.">MailChimp&#8217;s Project Omnivore: Declassified</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/25/carolyn-maloney/congresswoman-says-democratic-presidents-create-mo/" title="January 26 | &#8220;Obviously, luck matters a lot, but when there is a consistent pattern over more than 60 years, it starts to look like more than just luck.&#8221;">Congresswoman says Democratic presidents create more private-sector jobs</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_mali_what_teachers_make.html" title="January 25 | Truth.">Taylor Mali: What teachers make</a></li>
<li><a href="http://notebook.johnmartz.com/how-websites-work?c=1" title="January 22 | At last, the truth is out and I can stop pretending:  beatific monkeys are what makes it all go.">How websites work</a></li>
<li><a href="http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html" title="January 22 | &#8211; &#8230;. .. &#8230; / .. &#8230; / .- .&#8211; . &#8230; &#8212; &#8212; . / -. &#8212; / &#8230; . .-. .. &#8212; ..- &#8230; .-.. -.&#8211;">Morse Code Translator</a></li>
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<h4>The <a href="/feeds/excuse/">excuse of the day</a> is</h4>
<p>packet storms caused by a flock of rogue penguins</p>
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