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	<title>Comments on: Digging Into the Data</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Laura&#8217;s Notebook &#124; Technology for Non-profit Organisations, Social Media and Accessible Website Design &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Women working in non-profit technology - are we visible?</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-290181</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura&#8217;s Notebook &#124; Technology for Non-profit Organisations, Social Media and Accessible Website Design &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Women working in non-profit technology - are we visible?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2007 03:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-290181</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] on Eric Meyers blog, in his article on Digging into the Data, he ponders on questions raised by a post from Rebekah Ahrens. She saw that women made up 16.1% of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on Eric Meyers blog, in his article on Digging into the Data, he ponders on questions raised by a post from Rebekah Ahrens. She saw that women made up 16.1% of [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-273127</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:00:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-273127</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Self-promotion tool?

I&#039;m not sure whether laughter or tears would be the more appropriate reaction.  Maybe both.

Clearly, you&#039;re not going to believe that we did what we did for other than selfish reasons, nor that what we did might possibly have been a net positive.  I&#039;m sorry for that, but there&#039;s also little I can do about it, so I guess we&#039;ll just have to leave things there.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Self-promotion tool?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure whether laughter or tears would be the more appropriate reaction.  Maybe both.</p>
<p>Clearly, you&#8217;re not going to believe that we did what we did for other than selfish reasons, nor that what we did might possibly have been a net positive.  I&#8217;m sorry for that, but there&#8217;s also little I can do about it, so I guess we&#8217;ll just have to leave things there.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-273075</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 00:49:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-273075</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it&#039;s a dangerous assumption on your part --- and anyone else who thinks that the survey is even roughly accurate. I think you&#039;ve gathered SOME information. That&#039;s it. You&#039;ll need more surveys, more time, and more importantly *professionals* designing and evaluating the survey, before you&#039;ll know if what you came up with this time was relevant. 

Had the survey results been distributed with more of a caveat, I would understand. But they really weren&#039;t. I&#039;m seeing back-patting and congratulations and another notch in the ol&#039; web design kudos belt. Relevant and useful? As a self-promotion tool for the people who created it, surely. And a smart one, too, hats off to you for that. Relevant and useful to the rest of us? I strongly disagree.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s a dangerous assumption on your part &#8212; and anyone else who thinks that the survey is even roughly accurate. I think you&#8217;ve gathered SOME information. That&#8217;s it. You&#8217;ll need more surveys, more time, and more importantly *professionals* designing and evaluating the survey, before you&#8217;ll know if what you came up with this time was relevant. </p>
<p>Had the survey results been distributed with more of a caveat, I would understand. But they really weren&#8217;t. I&#8217;m seeing back-patting and congratulations and another notch in the ol&#8217; web design kudos belt. Relevant and useful? As a self-promotion tool for the people who created it, surely. And a smart one, too, hats off to you for that. Relevant and useful to the rest of us? I strongly disagree.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257964</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257964</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I understand your concerns, Rachel.  It&#039;s true that the survey is not truly and precisely representative---but &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; surveys and polls, regardless of how they&#039;re conducted, are non-representative.  It&#039;s just that some are less non-representative than others.

Personally, I found it more troublesome that nobody really knew the lay of the land, or even the size of the land.  Now we have something to go on, and given the number of people who responded, I believe it is likely a roughly accurate picture of the field.  As in, it may not be in perfect focus, but it&#039;s not so blurry as to be indecipherable.  I feel that what was created was a big first step toward getting a handle on what the community really looks like.  I think that&#039;s important.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understand your concerns, Rachel.  It&#8217;s true that the survey is not truly and precisely representative&#8212;but <em>all</em> surveys and polls, regardless of how they&#8217;re conducted, are non-representative.  It&#8217;s just that some are less non-representative than others.</p>
<p>Personally, I found it more troublesome that nobody really knew the lay of the land, or even the size of the land.  Now we have something to go on, and given the number of people who responded, I believe it is likely a roughly accurate picture of the field.  As in, it may not be in perfect focus, but it&#8217;s not so blurry as to be indecipherable.  I feel that what was created was a big first step toward getting a handle on what the community really looks like.  I think that&#8217;s important.</p>
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		<title>By: Rachel</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257913</link>
		<dc:creator>Rachel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 10 Nov 2007 01:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257913</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I took the survey and I&#039;m female, a designer and somewhat of a coder (more than a lot of designers I know) and was dismayed to see the data, both in terms of gender breakdowns but also income/salary. How some people can still be paid so little in our field is truly depressing. Don&#039;t even get me started on the m/f salary differences.

There are 2 things that are bugging me much more than the data in the compilation:
- Surveys are, by nature, not particularly reliable data. Many research groups do not even consider them to be valid research tools any more. So to have a number of very well-known web designers/developers/experts create and distribute an admittedly flawed survey seems... dare I say it... somewhat irresponsible. Lots of hard work and beautifully presented? Absolutely. Relevant? I question that.

- If we can all agree that surveys are flawed and this one was no different, and that creating one that can possibly gather any relevant information requires a statistician/survey professional, shouldn&#039;t we leave this to the them? I&#039;m not sure why an &#039;official&#039; survey of this nature has not been attempted in the past. Perhaps a reflection on the lack respect in our industry (just make the logo bigger!). But given that it will be undoubtedly passed along to all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons... I find it troublesome that it will be read by some as &#039;the lay of the land.&#039; Particularly impressionable younger women who decide not to get into the field because of what they&#039;ll be reading. Or a manager who doesn&#039;t think he needs to give that graphic designer a raise...

Don&#039;t get me wrong. I fully recognize and appreciate the work that went into it to begin with... I just question what was actually created.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I took the survey and I&#8217;m female, a designer and somewhat of a coder (more than a lot of designers I know) and was dismayed to see the data, both in terms of gender breakdowns but also income/salary. How some people can still be paid so little in our field is truly depressing. Don&#8217;t even get me started on the m/f salary differences.</p>
<p>There are 2 things that are bugging me much more than the data in the compilation:<br />
- Surveys are, by nature, not particularly reliable data. Many research groups do not even consider them to be valid research tools any more. So to have a number of very well-known web designers/developers/experts create and distribute an admittedly flawed survey seems&#8230; dare I say it&#8230; somewhat irresponsible. Lots of hard work and beautifully presented? Absolutely. Relevant? I question that.</p>
<p>- If we can all agree that surveys are flawed and this one was no different, and that creating one that can possibly gather any relevant information requires a statistician/survey professional, shouldn&#8217;t we leave this to the them? I&#8217;m not sure why an &#8216;official&#8217; survey of this nature has not been attempted in the past. Perhaps a reflection on the lack respect in our industry (just make the logo bigger!). But given that it will be undoubtedly passed along to all sorts of people for all sorts of reasons&#8230; I find it troublesome that it will be read by some as &#8216;the lay of the land.&#8217; Particularly impressionable younger women who decide not to get into the field because of what they&#8217;ll be reading. Or a manager who doesn&#8217;t think he needs to give that graphic designer a raise&#8230;</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong. I fully recognize and appreciate the work that went into it to begin with&#8230; I just question what was actually created.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257761</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 16:38:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257761</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You&#039;re quite right, Zach; that&#039;s a possibility.  The dataset is public, so please feel free to take the analysis further.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re quite right, Zach; that&#8217;s a possibility.  The dataset is public, so please feel free to take the analysis further.</p>
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		<title>By: Zach</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257757</link>
		<dc:creator>Zach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2007 15:51:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-257757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What are the actual numbers for women in each age group?  Are you sure this isn&#039;t just actually a product of there being many less OLDER MEN in web design?  If the actual trend here is that the web industry is dominated by younger men, but there&#039;s a fairly EQUAL distribution of women of all ages, then by definition of how percentages work, there will be a higher percentage of older women vs older men like you are seeing.

Show me a histogram of just women by age and separately men by age.  Without that, you can&#039;t validly draw from this chart a statistical conclusion about what women are doing in the field of web development.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are the actual numbers for women in each age group?  Are you sure this isn&#8217;t just actually a product of there being many less OLDER MEN in web design?  If the actual trend here is that the web industry is dominated by younger men, but there&#8217;s a fairly EQUAL distribution of women of all ages, then by definition of how percentages work, there will be a higher percentage of older women vs older men like you are seeing.</p>
<p>Show me a histogram of just women by age and separately men by age.  Without that, you can&#8217;t validly draw from this chart a statistical conclusion about what women are doing in the field of web development.</p>
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		<title>By: karl dubost, w3c</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-250103</link>
		<dc:creator>karl dubost, w3c</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-250103</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The results of the survey were interesting. I wonder if the language of the survey itself being English introduced a bias. 

Maybe it would help to run the survey by steps and promoting it from country to country with an appropriate translation in the language of the country. Then collect the results by country. 

For example, in Japan or France, the English only question will be a definitive no no.

Also it was very interesting to read where &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/10/hear-you-w3c-get-a-blog&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;people get the information Web versus Mailing-list&lt;/a&gt;. More news in a near future on that.

Btw Eric, will you be at the W3C TPAC 2007? You are &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/10/w3c-meets-web-community.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;more than welcome&lt;/a&gt;, you should contact Janet Daly if not yet done.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The results of the survey were interesting. I wonder if the language of the survey itself being English introduced a bias. </p>
<p>Maybe it would help to run the survey by steps and promoting it from country to country with an appropriate translation in the language of the country. Then collect the results by country. </p>
<p>For example, in Japan or France, the English only question will be a definitive no no.</p>
<p>Also it was very interesting to read where <a href="http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/10/hear-you-w3c-get-a-blog" rel="nofollow">people get the information Web versus Mailing-list</a>. More news in a near future on that.</p>
<p>Btw Eric, will you be at the W3C TPAC 2007? You are <a href="http://www.w3.org/QA/2007/10/w3c-meets-web-community.html" rel="nofollow">more than welcome</a>, you should contact Janet Daly if not yet done.</p>
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		<title>By: Abdelrahman Osama</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-249055</link>
		<dc:creator>Abdelrahman Osama</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 12:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-249055</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m in the process of creating analysis of the Middle East respondents.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m in the process of creating analysis of the Middle East respondents.</p>
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		<title>By: Sander</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-248581</link>
		<dc:creator>Sander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 23:56:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-248581</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Chris: not that hard. max-width: 100% on the image to cause it to never overflow the width of the &#039;column&#039;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris: not that hard. max-width: 100% on the image to cause it to never overflow the width of the &#8216;column&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebekah</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247888</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebekah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:13:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247888</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for posting this data.  I&#039;m glad you confirmed my results as well.  I&#039;m looking forward to future surveys where we can address some of these theories.  If further surveys are planned, I&#039;d be happy to volunteer some time to planning the questions so we can get more answers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for posting this data.  I&#8217;m glad you confirmed my results as well.  I&#8217;m looking forward to future surveys where we can address some of these theories.  If further surveys are planned, I&#8217;d be happy to volunteer some time to planning the questions so we can get more answers.</p>
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		<title>By: dw</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247816</link>
		<dc:creator>dw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:09:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247816</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi, I&#039;m the Dylan that Elaine mentioned. And I have a wild theory for the big dropoff.

At SXSWi this year, I was surprised by the number of women there. But most of them were in marketing, content creation, or bloggers. Few were coders, or designers. The ones that were, at least anecdotally, were centered around mobile devices.

Maybe what we&#039;re seeing is that with the emergence of these second and third generation job titles (e.g. information architect) that women who are interested in the web are gravitating towards those positions and away from the traditional design/development titles. Or maybe women are drawn more towards building and running websites more traditionally -- through traditional jobs like marketing or writing/editing -- because of perceived biases in the design/development world.

I think it&#039;s troubling that 22%+ of all female respondents they they&#039;ve been adversely affected by gender bias. And I&#039;m wondering if that bias is driving women towards web-related jobs where there is less perceived bias.

We must start addressing gender, racial, and regional bias in the coming years. We must.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, I&#8217;m the Dylan that Elaine mentioned. And I have a wild theory for the big dropoff.</p>
<p>At SXSWi this year, I was surprised by the number of women there. But most of them were in marketing, content creation, or bloggers. Few were coders, or designers. The ones that were, at least anecdotally, were centered around mobile devices.</p>
<p>Maybe what we&#8217;re seeing is that with the emergence of these second and third generation job titles (e.g. information architect) that women who are interested in the web are gravitating towards those positions and away from the traditional design/development titles. Or maybe women are drawn more towards building and running websites more traditionally &#8212; through traditional jobs like marketing or writing/editing &#8212; because of perceived biases in the design/development world.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s troubling that 22%+ of all female respondents they they&#8217;ve been adversely affected by gender bias. And I&#8217;m wondering if that bias is driving women towards web-related jobs where there is less perceived bias.</p>
<p>We must start addressing gender, racial, and regional bias in the coming years. We must.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Hester</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247762</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Hester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wow! Resizable graphs! (Resize your browser windows to see.) How?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow! Resizable graphs! (Resize your browser windows to see.) How?</p>
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		<title>By: Jemaleddin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247757</link>
		<dc:creator>Jemaleddin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:01:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247757</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d think you&#039;d want a bar chart of women that shows years experience broken up by age group to answer this question. It&#039;s my hunch that women come to the field later in life from some other endeavor.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d think you&#8217;d want a bar chart of women that shows years experience broken up by age group to answer this question. It&#8217;s my hunch that women come to the field later in life from some other endeavor.</p>
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		<title>By: David Carrington &#187; UK breakdown of web design survey results</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247737</link>
		<dc:creator>David Carrington &#187; UK breakdown of web design survey results</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/10/18/digging-into-the-data/#comment-247737</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Meyer pointed out that someone was looking to analyse the ALA Web Design 2007 Survey results for UK-only. I quite [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Meyer pointed out that someone was looking to analyse the ALA Web Design 2007 Survey results for UK-only. I quite [...]</p>
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