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	<title>Comments on: Finding Purpose</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Thought</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-379398</link>
		<dc:creator>Thought</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 22:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-379398</guid>
		<description>On a personal level, I&#039;ve tried living a good life with my own purpose.  Something really changed in me, when I felt and knew that there really is a God. I can&#039;t describe how I felt. To really know that there is a God, that he loves and he cares about you and me just the same, and that we have a chance to extend his love - really brought purpose to me.  When you see a mother that cares for her children through and through - that is pure love.  When you see someone spend their whole life to win a competitive event - and then at the last minute step aside and hand the honor to someone else - that is pure love.  When a community comes together to help someone in real need - that is real love. We have all witnessed moments of pure love.  Something really happens to us when we continue to really care about others.  We begin to find God - and the joy is incredible.  

I do think we can have purpose without knowing for sure if God exists.  But when we really know - it makes all the difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a personal level, I&#8217;ve tried living a good life with my own purpose.  Something really changed in me, when I felt and knew that there really is a God. I can&#8217;t describe how I felt. To really know that there is a God, that he loves and he cares about you and me just the same, and that we have a chance to extend his love &#8211; really brought purpose to me.  When you see a mother that cares for her children through and through &#8211; that is pure love.  When you see someone spend their whole life to win a competitive event &#8211; and then at the last minute step aside and hand the honor to someone else &#8211; that is pure love.  When a community comes together to help someone in real need &#8211; that is real love. We have all witnessed moments of pure love.  Something really happens to us when we continue to really care about others.  We begin to find God &#8211; and the joy is incredible.  </p>
<p>I do think we can have purpose without knowing for sure if God exists.  But when we really know &#8211; it makes all the difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Alistaire</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-330580</link>
		<dc:creator>Alistaire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Mar 2008 17:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-330580</guid>
		<description>I realize that this is an old thread and apologize for reviving it, but as I read through the comments I was struck by two things:

1. The commenters&#039; civility.  I don&#039;t know if this is a function of Eric&#039;s enlightened readership or enthusiastic editing, but remarkable nonetheless.

2. The discussion seemed to miss the mark:  most commenters spoke about their own beliefs, tolerance of others&#039; beliefs, the meaning of &quot;purpose&quot;, etc.

As for #2, that didn&#039;t strike me as the issue at all.  The issue, to me, is what &lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-261417&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lea&lt;/a&gt; brought up:  that here you have an admittedly skilled designer engaging in distasteful hypocrisy.  On his own site, he decries DesignObserver for &quot;drinking the kool-aid&quot; of introducing unrelated, inappropriate topics to discussions of design and goes on to insult people foolish enough to be convinced of the overwhelming evidence of human-influenced climate change.

To go on to do the same thing by means of a design podcast is what sticks in my craw.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize that this is an old thread and apologize for reviving it, but as I read through the comments I was struck by two things:</p>
<p>1. The commenters&#8217; civility.  I don&#8217;t know if this is a function of Eric&#8217;s enlightened readership or enthusiastic editing, but remarkable nonetheless.</p>
<p>2. The discussion seemed to miss the mark:  most commenters spoke about their own beliefs, tolerance of others&#8217; beliefs, the meaning of &#8220;purpose&#8221;, etc.</p>
<p>As for #2, that didn&#8217;t strike me as the issue at all.  The issue, to me, is what <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-261417" rel="nofollow">Lea</a> brought up:  that here you have an admittedly skilled designer engaging in distasteful hypocrisy.  On his own site, he decries DesignObserver for &#8220;drinking the kool-aid&#8221; of introducing unrelated, inappropriate topics to discussions of design and goes on to insult people foolish enough to be convinced of the overwhelming evidence of human-influenced climate change.</p>
<p>To go on to do the same thing by means of a design podcast is what sticks in my craw.</p>
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		<title>By: links for 2008-01-09 at doug nelson: DISENGAGE!</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-296094</link>
		<dc:creator>links for 2008-01-09 at doug nelson: DISENGAGE!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2008 00:34:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-296094</guid>
		<description>[...] Eric&#8217;s Archived Thoughts: Finding Purpose Comment asplosion over Andy Rutledge&#8217;s &#8220;no purpose without God&#8221; comment. (tags: blog design religion) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Eric&#8217;s Archived Thoughts: Finding Purpose Comment asplosion over Andy Rutledge&#8217;s &#8220;no purpose without God&#8221; comment. (tags: blog design religion) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-291281</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2007 03:44:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-291281</guid>
		<description>I recently read an excellent book related to this topic: Julian Baggini&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/dp/product/0195315790/?tag=randyhoyt-20&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;What&#039;s It All About?: Philosophy and the Meaning of Life&lt;/a&gt;. Baggini is a contemporary philosopher and atheist; one of the things he examines in this book is how one can have purpose in life without belief in God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I recently read an excellent book related to this topic: Julian Baggini&#8217;s <a href="http://www.amazon.com/dp/product/0195315790/?tag=randyhoyt-20" rel="nofollow">What&#8217;s It All About?: Philosophy and the Meaning of Life</a>. Baggini is a contemporary philosopher and atheist; one of the things he examines in this book is how one can have purpose in life without belief in God.</p>
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		<title>By: Gill</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-291089</link>
		<dc:creator>Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Dec 2007 19:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-291089</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;.....one makes an unverified claim to be a universal truth and disparages those who would disagree, while the other refutes the original statement on empirical evidence without personally disparaging the author. I know which is the most palatable to me.
Chris Cox&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Succinctly put and my thoughts exactly. Well done Eric for raising this and for keeping control of it so admirably.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8230;..one makes an unverified claim to be a universal truth and disparages those who would disagree, while the other refutes the original statement on empirical evidence without personally disparaging the author. I know which is the most palatable to me.<br />
Chris Cox</p></blockquote>
<p>Succinctly put and my thoughts exactly. Well done Eric for raising this and for keeping control of it so admirably.</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-287558</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Dec 2007 04:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-287558</guid>
		<description>Eric,

Thanks again for allowing others to share their views on purpose and God on your blog. I think this post and the comments was a great exercise in open, friendly discussion among professionals. Have a great holiday season!

Brian</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric,</p>
<p>Thanks again for allowing others to share their views on purpose and God on your blog. I think this post and the comments was a great exercise in open, friendly discussion among professionals. Have a great holiday season!</p>
<p>Brian</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Cox</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-279721</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Cox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2007 15:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-279721</guid>
		<description>Reading this post and all of the comments, it appears that even after many clarifications, Mr Mayer&#039;s still being misinterpreted - which may be a direct result of the discussion being on a point of religion.

Quoting points of dogma and passages of scripture cannot have any bearing on this, as it&#039;s down to the individual to subscribe to these and/or interpret them as required. There&#039;s the oft-quoted example of the unholiness of shellfish, for example. Or the fact that religion is an integral part of government in nearly every Christian country, despite the passage about rendering unto Caesar and rendering unto God.

Taking the two comments (Rutledge&#039;s and Meyer&#039;s) out of the context of preconceived notions of agnosticism, atheism and theism; one makes an unverified claim to be a universal truth and disparages those who would disagree, while the other refutes the original statement on empirical evidence without personally disparaging the author. I know which is the most palatable to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Reading this post and all of the comments, it appears that even after many clarifications, Mr Mayer&#8217;s still being misinterpreted &#8211; which may be a direct result of the discussion being on a point of religion.</p>
<p>Quoting points of dogma and passages of scripture cannot have any bearing on this, as it&#8217;s down to the individual to subscribe to these and/or interpret them as required. There&#8217;s the oft-quoted example of the unholiness of shellfish, for example. Or the fact that religion is an integral part of government in nearly every Christian country, despite the passage about rendering unto Caesar and rendering unto God.</p>
<p>Taking the two comments (Rutledge&#8217;s and Meyer&#8217;s) out of the context of preconceived notions of agnosticism, atheism and theism; one makes an unverified claim to be a universal truth and disparages those who would disagree, while the other refutes the original statement on empirical evidence without personally disparaging the author. I know which is the most palatable to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Fry</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-278897</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Fry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2007 00:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-278897</guid>
		<description>I try to read Eric&#039;s blog whenever I have the time as it&#039;s been greatly helpful to me in my web design.  I rarely write in but on this one I may be able to shed some light.  When I read Andy R. being quoted I felt that I understood what he was saying as I&#039;ve done some studying in the area of theology.  I can also understand what others who take an opposite view from him are saying.

While I may be wrong, I think that what he is saying is very deep.  In Christian theology at least there is the concept that every person is created in God&#039;s image (from Genesis 1-2).  Pascal said that everyone has a God-shaped void inside them.  We try to fill it with all kinds of other things to give us meaning but God is what fits best.  From this Christian theology has derived the thought that the purpose of man is to glorify God in whatever he does (work, play, etc).  In fact the Westminster Catechism says that the &quot;chief end of man is to glorify God&quot; (ie. read &quot;man&#039;s purpose&quot; or why God has created us).  If you understand Andy&#039;s comment in light of this information it makes more sense because those who don&#039;t acknowledge that there is a God have missed out on their chief purpose in life - ie. to glorify God and be satisfied in Him.  

Anyway, I think I&#039;ve said enough but maybe that&#039;ll be helpful to someone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I try to read Eric&#8217;s blog whenever I have the time as it&#8217;s been greatly helpful to me in my web design.  I rarely write in but on this one I may be able to shed some light.  When I read Andy R. being quoted I felt that I understood what he was saying as I&#8217;ve done some studying in the area of theology.  I can also understand what others who take an opposite view from him are saying.</p>
<p>While I may be wrong, I think that what he is saying is very deep.  In Christian theology at least there is the concept that every person is created in God&#8217;s image (from Genesis 1-2).  Pascal said that everyone has a God-shaped void inside them.  We try to fill it with all kinds of other things to give us meaning but God is what fits best.  From this Christian theology has derived the thought that the purpose of man is to glorify God in whatever he does (work, play, etc).  In fact the Westminster Catechism says that the &#8220;chief end of man is to glorify God&#8221; (ie. read &#8220;man&#8217;s purpose&#8221; or why God has created us).  If you understand Andy&#8217;s comment in light of this information it makes more sense because those who don&#8217;t acknowledge that there is a God have missed out on their chief purpose in life &#8211; ie. to glorify God and be satisfied in Him.  </p>
<p>Anyway, I think I&#8217;ve said enough but maybe that&#8217;ll be helpful to someone.</p>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-276983</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2007 00:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-276983</guid>
		<description>I find it interesting how some people find it not right / fair for Eric to say that Andy is wrong. I think Andy&#039;s remark is pretty much out of line. He&#039;s basically saying that anyone who doesn&#039;t have his whole life centered around a religion is pitiful. I find that quite an offensive statement to be honest. My life isn&#039;t centered around one and yet I find plenty of meaning in other things. And so do millions of others.

Saying &quot;I find purpose in my religion&quot; is something I&#039;ll respect in anyone with any religion. Saying that anyone who does&#039;t is pitiful is flat out offensive in my book. I&#039;d defend anyone&#039;s right to believe in whatever they want... until they state that those who don&#039;t believe are wrong / evil / purposeless / whatever other negative term. Islamic extremists are great at this and so are a lot of dogmatic Christians. It&#039;s very intolerant if you think of it. 

Whoever states that everything revolves around God has just as much proof for that statement as those who are atheist or agnostic: absolutely none. So I&#039;d suggest it&#039;s a lot better to refrain from such &#039;absolute statements&#039; and simply respect eachother, believers and non-believers alike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find it interesting how some people find it not right / fair for Eric to say that Andy is wrong. I think Andy&#8217;s remark is pretty much out of line. He&#8217;s basically saying that anyone who doesn&#8217;t have his whole life centered around a religion is pitiful. I find that quite an offensive statement to be honest. My life isn&#8217;t centered around one and yet I find plenty of meaning in other things. And so do millions of others.</p>
<p>Saying &#8220;I find purpose in my religion&#8221; is something I&#8217;ll respect in anyone with any religion. Saying that anyone who does&#8217;t is pitiful is flat out offensive in my book. I&#8217;d defend anyone&#8217;s right to believe in whatever they want&#8230; until they state that those who don&#8217;t believe are wrong / evil / purposeless / whatever other negative term. Islamic extremists are great at this and so are a lot of dogmatic Christians. It&#8217;s very intolerant if you think of it. </p>
<p>Whoever states that everything revolves around God has just as much proof for that statement as those who are atheist or agnostic: absolutely none. So I&#8217;d suggest it&#8217;s a lot better to refrain from such &#8216;absolute statements&#8217; and simply respect eachother, believers and non-believers alike.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-276259</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2007 23:27:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-276259</guid>
		<description>Eric - I think your point seems perfectly reasonable. I think that Andy is entitled to any opinion he likes relating to himself, but should consider other people&#039;s absense or difference of spiritual belief before making statements that assume that everyone shares his particular perspective. 
I actually think it&#039;s a shame that we all have to be *so* careful about discussions on religion. We can talk about the nature of time and space as casually as a cup of coffee, but start chatting about a bloke with a beard in the sky and everyone gets their guns out!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric &#8211; I think your point seems perfectly reasonable. I think that Andy is entitled to any opinion he likes relating to himself, but should consider other people&#8217;s absense or difference of spiritual belief before making statements that assume that everyone shares his particular perspective.<br />
I actually think it&#8217;s a shame that we all have to be *so* careful about discussions on religion. We can talk about the nature of time and space as casually as a cup of coffee, but start chatting about a bloke with a beard in the sky and everyone gets their guns out!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-275247</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 16:15:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-275247</guid>
		<description>Great discussion, and to everyone: relatively well handled. That&#039;s impressive considering how divisive religion often becomes.

Just a really quick observation: As I&#039;m reading through this post and the following comments I recognize that a point where there may be misunderstanding is in the meaning of &quot;purpose&quot;.

As I understand Andy&#039;s original comments, I think what he was implying is that one couldn&#039;t have a &lt;em&gt;good/right/true/etc.&lt;/em&gt; purpose without the inclusion of deity. (And that would be an opinion or personal conviction that would, obviously, be up for debate.)

That being said, it would by all means&#8212;and I think this is abundantly obvious&#8212;be possible to have a purpose without the inclusion of deity. Eric, what you and a lot of what people are saying in this discussion proves it.

It may be true according to Andy&#039;s beliefs that one couldn&#039;t have a legitimate purpose without an awareness of deity, but that is not to say one couldn&#039;t have a purpose at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion, and to everyone: relatively well handled. That&#8217;s impressive considering how divisive religion often becomes.</p>
<p>Just a really quick observation: As I&#8217;m reading through this post and the following comments I recognize that a point where there may be misunderstanding is in the meaning of &#8220;purpose&#8221;.</p>
<p>As I understand Andy&#8217;s original comments, I think what he was implying is that one couldn&#8217;t have a <em>good/right/true/etc.</em> purpose without the inclusion of deity. (And that would be an opinion or personal conviction that would, obviously, be up for debate.)</p>
<p>That being said, it would by all means&mdash;and I think this is abundantly obvious&mdash;be possible to have a purpose without the inclusion of deity. Eric, what you and a lot of what people are saying in this discussion proves it.</p>
<p>It may be true according to Andy&#8217;s beliefs that one couldn&#8217;t have a legitimate purpose without an awareness of deity, but that is not to say one couldn&#8217;t have a purpose at all.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-275069</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2007 01:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-275069</guid>
		<description>To say that Andy is just plain wrong, it a bit unfair. Do you &#039;know&#039; this as fact, or is it you opinion.. just pushed a little hard?

Consider this as an example for the word &#039;purpose&#039;. A watchmaker crafts his timepiece to display the correct time, this is the given purpose of the watch. Where does this watch derive its purpose? 

Though I didn&#039;t hear this particular podcast yet, to me, I think design and purpose go hand in hand, I love the idea. Most designs are initiated with an intended purpose. Websites are a great example of this... you wouldn&#039;t think of building a website without a specific purpose in mind. Now, could life be the grand example of &#039;design and purpose&#039;? Giving an emphatic &#039;plain wrong&#039; is a little strong for an opinionated topic. After all if God did create and purpose our lives, then our purpose is found only in God, it&#039;s as simple as that. If not, then we have no purpose &#039;given&#039; to us, but we attempt to create &#039;goals&#039; for ourselves... in essence, we would be cosmic accidents, in a free-for-all to do what we please, with no &#039;given&#039; purpose. I&#039;m not sure how one can be offended of another&#039;s opinion, since each of us do have opinions, but I am a little disappointed in Eric&#039;s comment of &#039;plain wrong&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To say that Andy is just plain wrong, it a bit unfair. Do you &#8216;know&#8217; this as fact, or is it you opinion.. just pushed a little hard?</p>
<p>Consider this as an example for the word &#8216;purpose&#8217;. A watchmaker crafts his timepiece to display the correct time, this is the given purpose of the watch. Where does this watch derive its purpose? </p>
<p>Though I didn&#8217;t hear this particular podcast yet, to me, I think design and purpose go hand in hand, I love the idea. Most designs are initiated with an intended purpose. Websites are a great example of this&#8230; you wouldn&#8217;t think of building a website without a specific purpose in mind. Now, could life be the grand example of &#8216;design and purpose&#8217;? Giving an emphatic &#8216;plain wrong&#8217; is a little strong for an opinionated topic. After all if God did create and purpose our lives, then our purpose is found only in God, it&#8217;s as simple as that. If not, then we have no purpose &#8216;given&#8217; to us, but we attempt to create &#8216;goals&#8217; for ourselves&#8230; in essence, we would be cosmic accidents, in a free-for-all to do what we please, with no &#8216;given&#8217; purpose. I&#8217;m not sure how one can be offended of another&#8217;s opinion, since each of us do have opinions, but I am a little disappointed in Eric&#8217;s comment of &#8216;plain wrong&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Christian</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-273421</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 22:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-273421</guid>
		<description>&quot;It&#039;s impossible to do good without God&#039;s grace&quot;

Not all Christians believe that. I am one (by first given name &lt;em&gt;and&lt;/em&gt; chosen religion) who does not believe it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s impossible to do good without God&#8217;s grace&#8221;</p>
<p>Not all Christians believe that. I am one (by first given name <em>and</em> chosen religion) who does not believe it.</p>
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		<title>By: hydra12</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-272922</link>
		<dc:creator>hydra12</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 15:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-272922</guid>
		<description>Eric, I think you&#039;ve done a good job with this post.  You disagreed with something someone said, you explained why, and you let other people share their opinions.  I wish more people could/would deal with things this way.  There&#039;s nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree and having respect for someone else&#039;s viewpoint when it doesn&#039;t agree with our own.

3 things:
1.  &#039;then I&quot;m afraid you do not grasp what “purpose” is&#039; - obviously, he is working from a definition of purpose that includes belief in a deity.   He has the right to his definition, just like everyone else.  It&#039;s OK to disagree.

2.  We all hold beliefs that we think are right.  When other people have beliefs that differ from ours, by definition we think they are wrong.  That doesn&#039;t mean that one or the other of us is stupid.  Misguided?  Ignorant (using Eric&#039;s definition)?  Maybe.  Which one is ignorant?  Which one is misguided?  I&#039;d say you are.  You&#039;d say I am.  We probably aren&#039;t going to agree.  Can we agree to disagree and still be friends?

Example:  I&#039;m a Christian.  In fact, I&#039;m an ordained Southern Baptist minister.  By definition, I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.  I believe that the only way to have a relationship with God is through Jesus.  I believe that if your purpose in life does not come from Jesus then you are missing out on all that God has for you.  (Note - I&#039;m not saying you don&#039;t have purpose!)

A lot of you would disagree with me on these things, and you know what?  That&#039;s OK.  I believe I&#039;m right.  You believe you&#039;re right.  It&#039;s OK to disagree.  I know a lot of people that I believe are just plain wrong.  They aren&#039;t bad people, they&#039;re just wrong (based on my stated beliefs above).  They think I&#039;m wrong.  We&#039;re still friends.  Go figure . . .

3.  I&#039;m a public school teacher and a youth minister.  I speak in front of people a lot.  Some of you do, too.  Have you ever said something and either had it come out differently than you meant it, or maybe had it taken differently than you meant it?  While I think the discussion on this topic has been great, I think this thing has been blown way out of proportion.  And for the record, that&#039;s not because I agree with Andy.  I personally take issue with the whole &#039;God, by whatever name you call him&#039; comment, because I think it&#039;s only through faith in Jesus.  But then, you probably knew that from my statement of beliefs above :-)

I&#039;ll cut my ramblings short now.  Great discussion, very well handled.  Let&#039;s all try to get along even when we don&#039;t agree.

Wow, I think (I hope) I made it through all of that without calling names or</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I think you&#8217;ve done a good job with this post.  You disagreed with something someone said, you explained why, and you let other people share their opinions.  I wish more people could/would deal with things this way.  There&#8217;s nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree and having respect for someone else&#8217;s viewpoint when it doesn&#8217;t agree with our own.</p>
<p>3 things:<br />
1.  &#8216;then I&#8221;m afraid you do not grasp what “purpose” is&#8217; &#8211; obviously, he is working from a definition of purpose that includes belief in a deity.   He has the right to his definition, just like everyone else.  It&#8217;s OK to disagree.</p>
<p>2.  We all hold beliefs that we think are right.  When other people have beliefs that differ from ours, by definition we think they are wrong.  That doesn&#8217;t mean that one or the other of us is stupid.  Misguided?  Ignorant (using Eric&#8217;s definition)?  Maybe.  Which one is ignorant?  Which one is misguided?  I&#8217;d say you are.  You&#8217;d say I am.  We probably aren&#8217;t going to agree.  Can we agree to disagree and still be friends?</p>
<p>Example:  I&#8217;m a Christian.  In fact, I&#8217;m an ordained Southern Baptist minister.  By definition, I believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God.  I believe that the only way to have a relationship with God is through Jesus.  I believe that if your purpose in life does not come from Jesus then you are missing out on all that God has for you.  (Note &#8211; I&#8217;m not saying you don&#8217;t have purpose!)</p>
<p>A lot of you would disagree with me on these things, and you know what?  That&#8217;s OK.  I believe I&#8217;m right.  You believe you&#8217;re right.  It&#8217;s OK to disagree.  I know a lot of people that I believe are just plain wrong.  They aren&#8217;t bad people, they&#8217;re just wrong (based on my stated beliefs above).  They think I&#8217;m wrong.  We&#8217;re still friends.  Go figure . . .</p>
<p>3.  I&#8217;m a public school teacher and a youth minister.  I speak in front of people a lot.  Some of you do, too.  Have you ever said something and either had it come out differently than you meant it, or maybe had it taken differently than you meant it?  While I think the discussion on this topic has been great, I think this thing has been blown way out of proportion.  And for the record, that&#8217;s not because I agree with Andy.  I personally take issue with the whole &#8216;God, by whatever name you call him&#8217; comment, because I think it&#8217;s only through faith in Jesus.  But then, you probably knew that from my statement of beliefs above :-)</p>
<p>I&#8217;ll cut my ramblings short now.  Great discussion, very well handled.  Let&#8217;s all try to get along even when we don&#8217;t agree.</p>
<p>Wow, I think (I hope) I made it through all of that without calling names or</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: J</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-271607</link>
		<dc:creator>J</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comment-271607</guid>
		<description>I know you don&#039;t want to discuss the atheist/agnostic divide, but I wanted to submit these &lt;a href=&quot;http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm&quot; title=&quot;Atheism vs. Agnosticism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;other&lt;/a&gt; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bkmarcus.com/blog/2004/08/on-atheism-agnosticism-and-faith.html&quot; title=&quot;Atheism vs. Agnosticism&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;explanations&lt;/a&gt; of the difference.

It could very well be the way I&#039;m reading into what you wrote, but you seemed somewhat defensive and determined to clarify your stance as not being atheist. I&#039;m not claiming you were doing so, but it&#039;s hard to constantly be treated as if your belief system is irrational, dogmatic, and close-minded, the way that atheists are regularly treated by the &quot;mainstream&quot; theist society. Pushing for or defining agnosticism as a &quot;third way&quot; only helps to worsen this mentality, by providing a &quot;more rational&quot; choice.

Essays such as the one I linked to are what made me realize that I am an agnostic atheist, and helped me to understand that agnosticism is not a &quot;theological placement&quot; as it has nothing to do with belief. Rather agnosticism is an epistemological placement, referring to knowledge, and is therefore equally applicable to both theists and atheists alike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know you don&#8217;t want to discuss the atheist/agnostic divide, but I wanted to submit these <a href="http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutagnosticism/a/atheism.htm" title="Atheism vs. Agnosticism" rel="nofollow">other</a> <a href="http://www.bkmarcus.com/blog/2004/08/on-atheism-agnosticism-and-faith.html" title="Atheism vs. Agnosticism" rel="nofollow">explanations</a> of the difference.</p>
<p>It could very well be the way I&#8217;m reading into what you wrote, but you seemed somewhat defensive and determined to clarify your stance as not being atheist. I&#8217;m not claiming you were doing so, but it&#8217;s hard to constantly be treated as if your belief system is irrational, dogmatic, and close-minded, the way that atheists are regularly treated by the &#8220;mainstream&#8221; theist society. Pushing for or defining agnosticism as a &#8220;third way&#8221; only helps to worsen this mentality, by providing a &#8220;more rational&#8221; choice.</p>
<p>Essays such as the one I linked to are what made me realize that I am an agnostic atheist, and helped me to understand that agnosticism is not a &#8220;theological placement&#8221; as it has nothing to do with belief. Rather agnosticism is an epistemological placement, referring to knowledge, and is therefore equally applicable to both theists and atheists alike.</p>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Finding Purpose">Finding Purpose</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Wed 14 Nov 2007</li>
<li class="time">1013</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/personal/" title="View all posts in Personal" rel="category tag">Personal</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/11/14/finding-purpose/#comments">74 responses</a></li>
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<p>
In my never-ceasing struggle to stay up to date on stuff, I occasionally manage to listen to a podcast while doing something else.  I don&#8217;t have any regular favorites; instead, I just grab whatever&#8217;s on tap and try to give it a slice of my attention while answering e-mail or writing markup.  It&#8217;s not the same as sitting very still and listening with all my attention, but as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Bauer">Jack Bauer</a> would shout, <em>there&#8217;s no time!</em>
</p>
<p>
So a couple of days ago, up came <a href="http://www.andyrutledge.com/purpose.php">show #5 </a>of Andy Rutledge&#8217;s <a href="http://show.andyrutledge.com/">Design View Show</a>.  It kicked off with some observations of two fine young chaps, <a href="http://andybudd.com/" rel="acquaintance met">Andy Budd</a> and <a href="http://boxofchocolates.ca/" rel="acquaintance met">Derek Featherstone</a>.  From there it segued into some good observations on finding purpose and acting in a purposeful way and keeping focus in the face of distractions, topics of recurring interest to me.  Things were rolling very nicely, with me nodding in agreement at various points&#8212;until, <a href="http://adactio.com/journal/1377">like Jeremy</a>, I came to a jaw-dropped stop right here:
</p>

<blockquote cite="http://www.andyrutledge.com/purpose.php"><p>I suggest that if you cannot recognize and acknowledge that purpose in life can only be derived from God, by whatever name you call him, then I&#8217;m afraid you do not grasp what &#8220;purpose&#8221; is. And to you I&#8217;d offer my deepest sympathies.</p></blockquote>

<p>
Well, Andy, I&#8217;d suggest that you&#8217;re wrong, but to do so would be dishonest.  There&#8217;s no suggestion about it: you&#8217;re wrong.  It is absolutely possible to grasp the meaning of &#8220;purpose&#8221; as in &#8220;purpose in life&#8221; (the sense you used it both there and throughout the show) without relating it to a deity, as I do every day of my life.  Unless of course your personal definition of the word &#8220;purpose&#8221; absolutely requires a deity, in which case, we can write this off as a case of subjective semantic incompatibility and walk away no worse for the wear.
</p>
<p>
Having opened this door, I feel I should be very clear about my theological placement: I&#8217;m agnostic.  This is very different than atheism, no matter what some claim.  I only bring this up because the vast majority of people reading previous paragraph would reflexively assume I&#8217;m an atheist.
</p>
<p>
Understand that I do <strong>not</strong> criticize, dismiss, or otherwise demean those who derive their feeling of purpose from a deity, by whatever name it&#8217;s called.  I think that finding purpose is one of the most important and essential things any of us can do, and it&#8217;s not my place to dismiss the paths others take toward that goal&#8230; any more than it is theirs to dismiss mine.  I&#8217;ve stumbled on that point in the past, even doing so once or twice here on meyerweb, and for that I&#8217;m ashamed of myself and I apologize.
</p>
<p>
For all this, I think Andy put together a great podcast with some very sharp, meaningful insights on finding and keeping purpose.  I&#8217;d recommend it to anyone, especially anyone struggling to find their place or direction in life, with the caveat that there are a couple of bits&#8212;like the one quoted above&#8212;that should be taken with a shaker of salt.  It is not a universal truth that one needs a deity, or even faith in some external power, to find purpose or direction in life.  I, and several people I know both in the field and outside it, stand as living proof.
</p>
<p>
I debated myself long and hard about posting this.  In the end, my impulse to challenge ignorance <ins datetime="2007-11-14T17:11:01+00:00">(in this case, the belief that belief in a deity and sense of life purpose are inseparable)</ins> won out over my instinct to keep quiet and let sleeping gods lie.
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