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	<title>Comments on: Bad Timing</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Cliff Wells</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-414776</link>
		<dc:creator>Cliff Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-414776</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt; 
&quot;Or a future where the open web is largely shriveled and dead thanks to wide-scale abandonment by the Windows community?&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I heard a prediction by John Dvorak in the same vein when Microsoft announced MSN.  That the internet would become just a dark closet in the house of MSN.  Didn&#039;t happen then, and the web was really just an infant compared to now.  It *could* have been killed, but wasn&#039;t.

Second, your statement assumes that Windows &quot;community&quot; means anything.  There is no community, only users, most of whom don&#039;t care about Microsoft&#039;s corporate agenda or legal concerns.  If Microsoft doesn&#039;t provide a browser, they&#039;ll use Firefox or Safari.  People care far more about eBay and Amazon than they do Windows.

Finally, if market trends are any indication, the time frame for Microsoft to deprecate the web would certainly be longer than the time frame for Apple to have eaten their lunch.   Microsoft has larger concerns (losing the desktop - or more precisely - the laptop to Apple).  I don&#039;t think sudden risky moves (such as handing a key part of their desktop over to competitors) are in their immediate future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
&#8220;Or a future where the open web is largely shriveled and dead thanks to wide-scale abandonment by the Windows community?&#8221;
</p></blockquote>
<p>I heard a prediction by John Dvorak in the same vein when Microsoft announced MSN.  That the internet would become just a dark closet in the house of MSN.  Didn&#8217;t happen then, and the web was really just an infant compared to now.  It *could* have been killed, but wasn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Second, your statement assumes that Windows &#8220;community&#8221; means anything.  There is no community, only users, most of whom don&#8217;t care about Microsoft&#8217;s corporate agenda or legal concerns.  If Microsoft doesn&#8217;t provide a browser, they&#8217;ll use Firefox or Safari.  People care far more about eBay and Amazon than they do Windows.</p>
<p>Finally, if market trends are any indication, the time frame for Microsoft to deprecate the web would certainly be longer than the time frame for Apple to have eaten their lunch.   Microsoft has larger concerns (losing the desktop &#8211; or more precisely &#8211; the laptop to Apple).  I don&#8217;t think sudden risky moves (such as handing a key part of their desktop over to competitors) are in their immediate future.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Web Development 2.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Web standards take a beating</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-317301</link>
		<dc:creator>Web Development 2.0 &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Web standards take a beating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 09:20:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-317301</guid>
		<description>[...] a long time now, and Opera&#8217;s suit has seen the gloves come off. As Eric Meyer observes, the timing is bad, but I for one am pleased to see the web community&#8217;s frustrations out in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a long time now, and Opera&#8217;s suit has seen the gloves come off. As Eric Meyer observes, the timing is bad, but I for one am pleased to see the web community&#8217;s frustrations out in the [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ADAC</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-299534</link>
		<dc:creator>ADAC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jan 2008 23:17:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-299534</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t seen any responses to Antony.

While I prefer using FireFox, he makes an interesting point.Many of our programming problems would disappear if we only had one browser to worry about.

Be it FireFox or IE, it would sure be nice if someone won the war instead of the constant battle with the users and programmers stuck in the middle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I haven&#8217;t seen any responses to Antony.</p>
<p>While I prefer using FireFox, he makes an interesting point.Many of our programming problems would disappear if we only had one browser to worry about.</p>
<p>Be it FireFox or IE, it would sure be nice if someone won the war instead of the constant battle with the users and programmers stuck in the middle.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Forum On Web Design and Internet &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Web Design Quotes: December’s Best</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-292978</link>
		<dc:creator>Forum On Web Design and Internet &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Web Design Quotes: December’s Best</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-292978</guid>
		<description>[...] Eric Meyer, Bad Timing  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Eric Meyer, Bad Timing  [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-292455</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2008 12:55:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-292455</guid>
		<description>Federico: I&#039;m sorry, but &quot;poor standard support&quot; is just nonsense. IE wil pass the Acid2 test with IE8. Firefox will pas the test with FF3. Does that mean Firefox also has &quot;poor standard support&quot;? The IE-team has made a leap forward with IE7 and seems to be doing the same with IE8. Although every browser has its own weaknesses and strengths, IE is adopting the open standards faster than I would have dreamed possible a few years ago. It&#039;s easy - and popular - to keep bashing Microsoft, but especially IE has come a long way and that should be appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Federico: I&#8217;m sorry, but &#8220;poor standard support&#8221; is just nonsense. IE wil pass the Acid2 test with IE8. Firefox will pas the test with FF3. Does that mean Firefox also has &#8220;poor standard support&#8221;? The IE-team has made a leap forward with IE7 and seems to be doing the same with IE8. Although every browser has its own weaknesses and strengths, IE is adopting the open standards faster than I would have dreamed possible a few years ago. It&#8217;s easy &#8211; and popular &#8211; to keep bashing Microsoft, but especially IE has come a long way and that should be appreciated.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Felix</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-289817</link>
		<dc:creator>Felix</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2007 17:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-289817</guid>
		<description>A lot of people are asking why Microsoft cannot simply say what features will be in IE8. It&#039;s a fundamental part of development that things change. Planned features can often run into the brick wall of being too difficult to implement (into the upcoming version without huge delays, typically) or completely degrading performance (with the same caveat). Implemented features may be removed or downgraded later for performance or security reasons. Many things can change, and it&#039;s quite common for the final product to have a few feature differences to the initial planned product. Usually when something is announced, even cautionally as just being worked on, people rely on it and start hatin&#039; when it&#039;s not in the final thing. It&#039;s by far safer and easier for a development team to keep stumm on features and dates, because not everyone appreciates that these things often don&#039;t go to plan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of people are asking why Microsoft cannot simply say what features will be in IE8. It&#8217;s a fundamental part of development that things change. Planned features can often run into the brick wall of being too difficult to implement (into the upcoming version without huge delays, typically) or completely degrading performance (with the same caveat). Implemented features may be removed or downgraded later for performance or security reasons. Many things can change, and it&#8217;s quite common for the final product to have a few feature differences to the initial planned product. Usually when something is announced, even cautionally as just being worked on, people rely on it and start hatin&#8217; when it&#8217;s not in the final thing. It&#8217;s by far safer and easier for a development team to keep stumm on features and dates, because not everyone appreciates that these things often don&#8217;t go to plan.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Federico MP</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-287132</link>
		<dc:creator>Federico MP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2007 11:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-287132</guid>
		<description>Netscape 6.0 did not have the same market share as IE so it was not a menace for the open web.
And when will it be the right time? When browsers implement CSS N and IE starts considering implementation of CCS N-10? Why should Opera or whoever complains wait for IE8 which we all know will have less standard support than most of the other browsers?
Have you think that MS might be using its poor standard support on purpose as a lock-in technique?
And why we should try to be nice and comprehensive about MS when all other browsers vendors have a headache every time they have to use reverse engineering on IE?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Netscape 6.0 did not have the same market share as IE so it was not a menace for the open web.<br />
And when will it be the right time? When browsers implement CSS N and IE starts considering implementation of CCS N-10? Why should Opera or whoever complains wait for IE8 which we all know will have less standard support than most of the other browsers?<br />
Have you think that MS might be using its poor standard support on purpose as a lock-in technique?<br />
And why we should try to be nice and comprehensive about MS when all other browsers vendors have a headache every time they have to use reverse engineering on IE?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pixel Acres &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Web standards take a beating</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-285290</link>
		<dc:creator>Pixel Acres &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Web standards take a beating</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:49:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-285290</guid>
		<description>[...] a long time now, and Opera&#8217;s suit has seen the gloves come off. As Eric Meyer observes, the timing might be bad, but I&#8217;m pleased to see the web community&#8217;s frustrations out in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a long time now, and Opera&#8217;s suit has seen the gloves come off. As Eric Meyer observes, the timing might be bad, but I&#8217;m pleased to see the web community&#8217;s frustrations out in the [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rowan</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-285051</link>
		<dc:creator>Rowan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 22:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-285051</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;As far as Microsoft is concerned, I have not received any instruction to change my participation in W3C in any way because of this or any other lawsuits. Personally, I love working with Håkon and all CSSWG members... whatever Opera&#039;s intentions are, I can&#039;t imagine it involves not being interested in working together on a standard that is worth implementing. I am certainly interested and plan to keep doing that, to the best of my abilities and any time that I can afford to invest.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2007/12/19/signal_to_noise</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;As far as Microsoft is concerned, I have not received any instruction to change my participation in W3C in any way because of this or any other lawsuits. Personally, I love working with Håkon and all CSSWG members&#8230; whatever Opera&#8217;s intentions are, I can&#8217;t imagine it involves not being interested in working together on a standard that is worth implementing. I am certainly interested and plan to keep doing that, to the best of my abilities and any time that I can afford to invest.</p></blockquote>
<p><a href="http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2007/12/19/signal_to_noise" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/blog/CSS/2007/12/19/signal_to_noise</a></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Un passo al giorno ~ Davide Bocci in...</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284905</link>
		<dc:creator>Un passo al giorno ~ Davide Bocci in...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:57:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284905</guid>
		<description>[...]  Bad timing  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  Bad timing  [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Oppenheim</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284877</link>
		<dc:creator>James Oppenheim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284877</guid>
		<description>What about &lt;a href=&quot;http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/12/19/internet-explorer-8-and-acid2-a-milestone.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IE8 suggesting&lt;/a&gt; that they now render the Acid2 Face correctly in standards mode.Surely this is a major step in the right direction or at least a change in thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about <a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2007/12/19/internet-explorer-8-and-acid2-a-milestone.aspx" rel="nofollow">IE8 suggesting</a> that they now render the Acid2 Face correctly in standards mode.Surely this is a major step in the right direction or at least a change in thinking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Niko Neugebauer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284876</link>
		<dc:creator>Niko Neugebauer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284876</guid>
		<description>This is good news - whatever you stand for, whatever you believe in or not. We need a better, more standard web where we write our code without  regards on the browser. 

IE8 is passing ACID2 test - isn&#039;t it what we all wish from Microsoft ?
Whatever the reason behind it - i do not care as long as web gets better. Will i use IE8 - no, but do i need it to be standards compliant - YES.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is good news &#8211; whatever you stand for, whatever you believe in or not. We need a better, more standard web where we write our code without  regards on the browser. </p>
<p>IE8 is passing ACID2 test &#8211; isn&#8217;t it what we all wish from Microsoft ?<br />
Whatever the reason behind it &#8211; i do not care as long as web gets better. Will i use IE8 &#8211; no, but do i need it to be standards compliant &#8211; YES.</p>
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		<title>By: Holy Standards Support, IE8! :: Unintentionally Blank</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284527</link>
		<dc:creator>Holy Standards Support, IE8! :: Unintentionally Blank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 23:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284527</guid>
		<description>[...] their monopoly in the browser department and their lack of support for standards (which caused some ripples around the rest of the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] their monopoly in the browser department and their lack of support for standards (which caused some ripples around the rest of the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Opera Sucks, At Least Some People Have Sense</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284405</link>
		<dc:creator>Opera Sucks, At Least Some People Have Sense</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 15:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284405</guid>
		<description>[...] force them to follow web standards. And its the lamest thing they could do. At least some people have sense and are not taking [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] force them to follow web standards. And its the lamest thing they could do. At least some people have sense and are not taking [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: SitePoint Blogs &#187; Clarke Calls for CSS Working Group to be Disbanded</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284111</link>
		<dc:creator>SitePoint Blogs &#187; Clarke Calls for CSS Working Group to be Disbanded</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Dec 2007 03:19:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comment-284111</guid>
		<description>[...] echoed by many in the web design community. CSS expert Eric Meyer considers the Opera move to be bad timing, coming right when Microsoft was showing promise with IE7 and the upcoming [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] echoed by many in the web design community. CSS expert Eric Meyer considers the Opera move to be bad timing, coming right when Microsoft was showing promise with IE7 and the upcoming [...]</p>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Bad Timing">Bad Timing</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Thu 13 Dec 2007</li>
<li class="time">2359</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/browsers/" title="View all posts in Browsers" rel="category tag">Browsers</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/12/13/bad-timing/#comments">62 responses</a></li>
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<div class="text">
<p>
<a href="http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/en/2007/12/13/">Opera fired a broadside at Microsoft today</a>.  In accompaniment, H&aring;kon Lie posted &#8220;<a href="http://people.opera.com/howcome/2007/msft/">an open letter to the Web community</a>&#8221; in which he says:
</p>

<blockquote>
<p>
To those of you who build and shape the sites and services we use everyday &#8212; and who will create those in the future &#8212; I ask for your support. You will be the ones who ultimately benefit by having a Web that works seamlessly and effortlessly across devices, browsers and is equally open to everyone. That new day is just over the horizon&#8230;
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
Yes, it is.  Or maybe it <em>was</em>, until this happened.
</p>
<p>
Look, the time to file this motion and make this appeal was in 2005, when Internet Explorer had been dead in the water for years and it was genuinely holding back web design.  Then there&#8217;d have been a case to make.  When IE7 came out in late 2006, it wasn&#8217;t a great leap forward for web development, but it did bring IE more or less in line with where browsers were at the time&#8212;which was, frankly, a pretty large leap.  After all, they were doing five years of catch-up with a pretty small team.  Now we have IE8 in development, and there is a real chance that it could push standards support forward in a significant way.
</p>
<p>
But not if developing the browser becomes more of a liability than just walking away from it altogether.
</p>
<p>
They can&#8217;t do that, you say?  Oh, but they can, and at a corporate level would probably love nothing more than to do so.  With Silverlight, there&#8217;s the opportunity to create browser-like internet applications that support no open standards, answer to no external specifications.  The IE team would likely disagree strongly with such a course, but cut funding to the team and there&#8217;s little they can do to change it.  If you think web development is horrible now, how about a future where there literally are entirely different browsers to support?  Or a future where the open web is largely shriveled and dead thanks to wide-scale abandonment by the Windows community?
</p>
<p>
I am not advocating that we hold ourselves hostage to what Microsoft, or indeed any company, might try to do.  We&#8217;re already held hostage enough to the glacial pace of the W3C (and Mr. Clarke <a href="http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/malarkey/more/css_unworking_group/">has some ideas on how to fix that</a>).  What I&#8217;m advocating is that rather than attacking the laggard right when he&#8217;s showing promise of catching up and being part of the team again, it might be better to help him along, maybe even say a few words of encouragement.  Unless, that is, this attack springs out of some sort of perceived threat&#8212;in which case, just say so, and don&#8217;t use web standards as a fig leaf.
</p>
<p>
I wondered, upon having this instinctive reaction unfold, whether I was completely off my rocker.  But then I asked myself what I&#8217;d think if, say, Opera or Microsoft or anyone had pulled a similar move against Netscape circa 2001, when Netscape 6.0 was out and causing widespread grief while the programmers struggled to update and fix its standards support.  The answer came back the same.
</p>
<p>
It&#8217;s the wrong move at the wrong time, sending precisely the wrong signal to Microsoft about the importance of participating in development and support of open standards, and I can only hope that it comes to a quiet and unheralded end.
</p>
</div>

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<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

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<li><a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20100117064356428" title="February 8 | Storing this for future use.">Take a picture with the iSight camera when a folder is opened</a></li>
<li><a href="http://mingle2.com/blog/view/web-developer-mind" title="February 4 | Mostly valid.  (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?)">The Mind of a Web Developer: An Illustrated Diagram</a></li>
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<li><a href="http://www.mailchimp.com/blog/project-omnivore-declassified/" title="January 27 | Sounds like quite a feat.  But I wonder how we&#8217;d feel if Microsoft or Google announced the same kind of thing on their e-mail services.">MailChimp&#8217;s Project Omnivore: Declassified</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/25/carolyn-maloney/congresswoman-says-democratic-presidents-create-mo/" title="January 26 | &#8220;Obviously, luck matters a lot, but when there is a consistent pattern over more than 60 years, it starts to look like more than just luck.&#8221;">Congresswoman says Democratic presidents create more private-sector jobs</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_mali_what_teachers_make.html" title="January 25 | Truth.">Taylor Mali: What teachers make</a></li>
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