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	<title>Comments on: Almost Target</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: About the meta IE8 switching tag &#171; The Universe Divided</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-430349</link>
		<dc:creator>About the meta IE8 switching tag &#171; The Universe Divided</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Dec 2008 14:55:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-430349</guid>
		<description>[...] had their say in it already. Now it&#8217;s my turn, d*** it! It was kind of weird to see Zeldman, Meyer and PPK all agree on something that seems it would have to be appalling to standardistas, in the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] had their say in it already. Now it&#8217;s my turn, d*** it! It was kind of weird to see Zeldman, Meyer and PPK all agree on something that seems it would have to be appalling to standardistas, in the [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Twenty Sided &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Catching up with Web Standards</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-343581</link>
		<dc:creator>Twenty Sided &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Catching up with Web Standards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Mar 2008 16:00:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-343581</guid>
		<description>[...] on the digital one. Eric Meyer has a beautiful example of a problem that has no right answer: You can either conform to the specs or you can make it work. In a perfect world these two actions would be identical, not mutually exclusive. This intrusion of [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on the digital one. Eric Meyer has a beautiful example of a problem that has no right answer: You can either conform to the specs or you can make it work. In a perfect world these two actions would be identical, not mutually exclusive. This intrusion of [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Richard Rutter</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-323827</link>
		<dc:creator>Richard Rutter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Feb 2008 14:15:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-323827</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-305490&quot;&gt;a page will be able to tell [IE] at which stage of IE&quot;s evolution it was developed, and should thus be treated&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Thank you for putting it so succinctly. This is the crux of &lt;em&gt;my&lt;/em&gt; argument too, and why I (reluctantly) agree with the default versioning behaviour proposed by MS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-305490"><p>a page will be able to tell [IE] at which stage of IE&#8221;s evolution it was developed, and should thus be treated</p></blockquote>
<p>Thank you for putting it so succinctly. This is the crux of <em>my</em> argument too, and why I (reluctantly) agree with the default versioning behaviour proposed by MS.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: ThePickards &#187; Blog Archive &#187; IE8 Meta</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-319359</link>
		<dc:creator>ThePickards &#187; Blog Archive &#187; IE8 Meta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Feb 2008 00:58:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-319359</guid>
		<description>[...] they were even interested in my opinion in the first place. Plus, having read what Roger and Eric have to say on it, as well as the 600+ comments on the IE blog entry, plus what Chris Wilson had to [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] they were even interested in my opinion in the first place. Plus, having read what Roger and Eric have to say on it, as well as the 600+ comments on the IE blog entry, plus what Chris Wilson had to [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: mynth</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-319221</link>
		<dc:creator>mynth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-319221</guid>
		<description>so in 2015 i will have in my head section something like this:

&lt;head&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8.1&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8.2&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8.3&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8.5&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8.6&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=8.6.5&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9.1&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9.1.5.1&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9.1.5.3&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9.2&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9.3&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=9.4&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=10&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=NewXPERIENCE&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=NewXPERIENCE 1.1&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=NewXPERIENCE 1.15&quot; /&gt;
&lt;meta http-equiv=&quot;X-UA-Compatible&quot; content=&quot;IE=NewXPERIENCE 1.21&quot; /&gt;

&lt;title /&gt;
&lt;head&gt;

?


if in ie9 i put &quot;ie 8 compatible tag&quot; it will be rendered with ie 8 engine, or ie 9 engine. 

Will ie11 have 20 engines for every version?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so in 2015 i will have in my head section something like this:</p>
<p>&lt;head&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8.1&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8.2&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8.3&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8.5&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8.6&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=8.6.5&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9.1&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9.1.5.1&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9.1.5.3&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9.2&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9.3&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=9.4&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=10&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=NewXPERIENCE&#8221; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=NewXPERIENCE 1.1&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=NewXPERIENCE 1.15&#8243; /&gt;<br />
&lt;meta http-equiv=&#8221;X-UA-Compatible&#8221; content=&#8221;IE=NewXPERIENCE 1.21&#8243; /&gt;</p>
<p>&lt;title /&gt;<br />
&lt;head&gt;</p>
<p>?</p>
<p>if in ie9 i put &#8220;ie 8 compatible tag&#8221; it will be rendered with ie 8 engine, or ie 9 engine. </p>
<p>Will ie11 have 20 engines for every version?</p>
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		<title>By: Austin Cheney</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-316808</link>
		<dc:creator>Austin Cheney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 15:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-316808</guid>
		<description>I agree with the direction IE8 is taking.  The problem is that people are confusing standards for requirements.  According to the &lt;abbr title=&quot;World Wide Web Consortium&quot;&gt;W3C&lt;/abbr&gt; the standards are recommendations and not requirements.  The &lt;abbr title=&quot;World Wide Web Consortium&quot;&gt;W3C&lt;/abbr&gt; provides standards that are relegated to mere guidance while the browser vendors provide the requirements.  This is not my desire to favor browser vendors, but the reality in which the internet exists.

&lt;strong&gt;Identifying the problem - faulty reasoning&lt;/strong&gt;
The problem is confusion between those &lt;abbr title=&quot;recommendations and requirements&quot;&gt;&quot;R&quot;&lt;/abbr&gt; words.  If the standards are not requirements then the idealism for standards lust based arguments looses idealistic appeal.  The rational result is to ensure the recommendations become requirements, or at least enforceable options.

&lt;strong&gt;Identifying the solution - a migratory path for browser vendors&lt;/strong&gt;
Unfortunately the standards are written as doctypes and not schema, so validation of code is not capable of being enforced.  Browser vendors are more capable of enforcing the standards that are otherwise unenforceable merely through field use.  The solution to the noted problem is help browser vendors carry the torch of standards enforcement.  Notice that I said &lt;b&gt;&lt;em&gt;standards enforcement&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/b&gt; and not &lt;b&gt;&lt;em&gt;standards compliance&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/b&gt;.  In order to achieve this most desirable solution without immediate alienation of backwards conformance browser vendors must adhere to a three part plan:

&lt;b&gt;1) - Abandon slackware:&lt;/b&gt; Browser vendors must implement an optional standards mode that fails on non-compliant pages. This will allow designers to create future compatible content that is nothing less than well formed.

In the case of IE8 the IE8 processing engine must be optional if it actually wishes to be strict to the standards.  Internet users must be aware that IE8 is not requiring conformance to the standards of IE8, but it will.  This allows content owners to get their assets up to par before they are exposed as flawed, archaic, or simply incompetent.  This would also satisfy the requirement of point 3 - timely notice.

&lt;b&gt;2) - Version control:&lt;/b&gt; Browser vendors must implement a version control system to warn web content owners that the browser will significantly limit backwards compatibility in future versions.  This will allow time necessary for content owners to conform to the standards before their pages begin to break.

&lt;b&gt;3) - Timely notice:&lt;/b&gt; Browser vendors must make public what a browser version will no longer support and what new features it will support 9-18 months in advance to allow the market to prepare for those changes.  Without timely notice the previous two points are irrelevant.  The point of timely notice is not to benefit designers or asset owners, but to protect the browser vendors.  Browser vendors must view themselves as always legally liable and take steps accordingly to continually provide innovation while ending support for older versions that impair such innovation.

&lt;strong&gt;Intended result - standards become requirements&lt;/strong&gt;
The goal is not to improve code.  The goal is to make content asset owners aware that archaic content and markup methods will expire and that it is their liability to stay up to date.  Without liability there are no requirements.

&lt;strong&gt;The only alternative - abandoning &lt;abbr title=&quot;hyper text markup language&quot;&gt;HTML&lt;/abbr&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;
If standards are important they would be enforceable.  If browser conformance to those standards were important then they would be given the liability of enforcement.  If the mentioned steps are too much to ask for then HTML creation will never be standards conforming.  Requirements are extreme in their strictness and lack of compromise or they are not requirements.  If standards are not entirely followed then they are not standards.

If the mentioned steps are not appetizing then simply abandon HTML.  Create a new markup language that is more semantic and defined by schema so that validation is a requirement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with the direction IE8 is taking.  The problem is that people are confusing standards for requirements.  According to the <abbr title="World Wide Web Consortium">W3C</abbr> the standards are recommendations and not requirements.  The <abbr title="World Wide Web Consortium">W3C</abbr> provides standards that are relegated to mere guidance while the browser vendors provide the requirements.  This is not my desire to favor browser vendors, but the reality in which the internet exists.</p>
<p><strong>Identifying the problem &#8211; faulty reasoning</strong><br />
The problem is confusion between those <abbr title="recommendations and requirements">&quot;R&quot;</abbr> words.  If the standards are not requirements then the idealism for standards lust based arguments looses idealistic appeal.  The rational result is to ensure the recommendations become requirements, or at least enforceable options.</p>
<p><strong>Identifying the solution &#8211; a migratory path for browser vendors</strong><br />
Unfortunately the standards are written as doctypes and not schema, so validation of code is not capable of being enforced.  Browser vendors are more capable of enforcing the standards that are otherwise unenforceable merely through field use.  The solution to the noted problem is help browser vendors carry the torch of standards enforcement.  Notice that I said <b><em>standards enforcement</em></b> and not <b><em>standards compliance</em></b>.  In order to achieve this most desirable solution without immediate alienation of backwards conformance browser vendors must adhere to a three part plan:</p>
<p><b>1) &#8211; Abandon slackware:</b> Browser vendors must implement an optional standards mode that fails on non-compliant pages. This will allow designers to create future compatible content that is nothing less than well formed.</p>
<p>In the case of IE8 the IE8 processing engine must be optional if it actually wishes to be strict to the standards.  Internet users must be aware that IE8 is not requiring conformance to the standards of IE8, but it will.  This allows content owners to get their assets up to par before they are exposed as flawed, archaic, or simply incompetent.  This would also satisfy the requirement of point 3 &#8211; timely notice.</p>
<p><b>2) &#8211; Version control:</b> Browser vendors must implement a version control system to warn web content owners that the browser will significantly limit backwards compatibility in future versions.  This will allow time necessary for content owners to conform to the standards before their pages begin to break.</p>
<p><b>3) &#8211; Timely notice:</b> Browser vendors must make public what a browser version will no longer support and what new features it will support 9-18 months in advance to allow the market to prepare for those changes.  Without timely notice the previous two points are irrelevant.  The point of timely notice is not to benefit designers or asset owners, but to protect the browser vendors.  Browser vendors must view themselves as always legally liable and take steps accordingly to continually provide innovation while ending support for older versions that impair such innovation.</p>
<p><strong>Intended result &#8211; standards become requirements</strong><br />
The goal is not to improve code.  The goal is to make content asset owners aware that archaic content and markup methods will expire and that it is their liability to stay up to date.  Without liability there are no requirements.</p>
<p><strong>The only alternative &#8211; abandoning <abbr title="hyper text markup language">HTML</abbr></strong><br />
If standards are important they would be enforceable.  If browser conformance to those standards were important then they would be given the liability of enforcement.  If the mentioned steps are too much to ask for then HTML creation will never be standards conforming.  Requirements are extreme in their strictness and lack of compromise or they are not requirements.  If standards are not entirely followed then they are not standards.</p>
<p>If the mentioned steps are not appetizing then simply abandon HTML.  Create a new markup language that is more semantic and defined by schema so that validation is a requirement.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Leszek Swirski</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-315930</link>
		<dc:creator>Leszek Swirski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 02:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-315930</guid>
		<description>Brian Warshaw: You seem to be the first person to be speaking any sense.

The whole point of this proposal is to &quot;not break the web&quot;, not to &quot;not break the web after &lt;strong&gt;every&lt;/strong&gt; broken page adds a meta tag to unbreak it&quot;. Some pages are dead, some have idiot developers who refuse to accept that new browsers are out, some have idiot developers who don&#039;t know that new browsers are out. Whatever the reason, saying that pages won&#039;t be broken because you can unbreak them is very naive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian Warshaw: You seem to be the first person to be speaking any sense.</p>
<p>The whole point of this proposal is to &#8220;not break the web&#8221;, not to &#8220;not break the web after <strong>every</strong> broken page adds a meta tag to unbreak it&#8221;. Some pages are dead, some have idiot developers who refuse to accept that new browsers are out, some have idiot developers who don&#8217;t know that new browsers are out. Whatever the reason, saying that pages won&#8217;t be broken because you can unbreak them is very naive.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ray McCord</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-311068</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray McCord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 02:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-311068</guid>
		<description>@ JeffW in # 72

CSS 2.1 is, in fact, a revision to bring the standards in line with the existing implementations. In doing so, it broke compatibility with a few implementations of CSS 2.0 and made some changes that were technically inferior to the original specification.

It was recognized that standards are only so when relevant. Thus, web standards do adapt to our shared reality. The W3C had retired HTML and started touting XHTML as the way forward. The development of HTML 5 recognizes that not everyone in reality wants an XML-derived markup language as the basis for the web. The rigidity of the standards is not the problem.

The problem is that the standards now agree with all other existing implementations, except IE. Standards compromised already. It is now the turn of IE to make the effort to come in line with the standards and other implementations.

@ JeffW in #73

The supply chain you state is incorrect. The browser &quot;product&quot; is not modified and redistributed by the Author of each site to the End User. That is just not how it works.

The browser is between the Author and the End User. It is not a source producer. It&#039;s middleware. The source producer is the Author.

It&#039;s important to note that, in terms of IE, if the Author is a third-party web developer or tool maker (whom is not partnered with Microsoft), they are not viewed as the customers of the browser maker. The browser maker&#039;s customers are viewed as being the End User and Site Owner. Period.

Even though we web developers provide the service which gives the browser its value to the end user and enables the site owner to extract value from the browser, we are rarely, if ever, given much consideration.

From the IE point of view, the supply chain is like this:

End User &lt;-- Browser Maker &lt;-- Site Owner &lt;-- Third Party (Web Developers and Tool Makers)

That we have the power to demand change is through our expertise, but only when we realize and take the attitude that the site owner came to us because they *need* us -- we are the experts in a legitimate profession that deserves respect. Only when we have the ability to sway the thinking of the site owner can our influence and demands be extended down the line to the browser maker.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ JeffW in # 72</p>
<p>CSS 2.1 is, in fact, a revision to bring the standards in line with the existing implementations. In doing so, it broke compatibility with a few implementations of CSS 2.0 and made some changes that were technically inferior to the original specification.</p>
<p>It was recognized that standards are only so when relevant. Thus, web standards do adapt to our shared reality. The W3C had retired HTML and started touting XHTML as the way forward. The development of HTML 5 recognizes that not everyone in reality wants an XML-derived markup language as the basis for the web. The rigidity of the standards is not the problem.</p>
<p>The problem is that the standards now agree with all other existing implementations, except IE. Standards compromised already. It is now the turn of IE to make the effort to come in line with the standards and other implementations.</p>
<p>@ JeffW in #73</p>
<p>The supply chain you state is incorrect. The browser &#8220;product&#8221; is not modified and redistributed by the Author of each site to the End User. That is just not how it works.</p>
<p>The browser is between the Author and the End User. It is not a source producer. It&#8217;s middleware. The source producer is the Author.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s important to note that, in terms of IE, if the Author is a third-party web developer or tool maker (whom is not partnered with Microsoft), they are not viewed as the customers of the browser maker. The browser maker&#8217;s customers are viewed as being the End User and Site Owner. Period.</p>
<p>Even though we web developers provide the service which gives the browser its value to the end user and enables the site owner to extract value from the browser, we are rarely, if ever, given much consideration.</p>
<p>From the IE point of view, the supply chain is like this:</p>
<p>End User &lt;&#8211; Browser Maker &lt;&#8211; Site Owner &lt;&#8211; Third Party (Web Developers and Tool Makers)</p>
<p>That we have the power to demand change is through our expertise, but only when we realize and take the attitude that the site owner came to us because they *need* us &#8212; we are the experts in a legitimate profession that deserves respect. Only when we have the ability to sway the thinking of the site owner can our influence and demands be extended down the line to the browser maker.</p>
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		<title>By: JeffW</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-310103</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:47:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-310103</guid>
		<description>Richard Fink said: 
Second, if you view standards-based features as a product (which it is), the supplier chain looks like this:

1) Browser makers
2) Authors (the people who create sites)
3) Users


... don&#039;t forget those who make the tools to help authors create sites... that&#039;s another level, whether they be editors, syntax checkers, WYWI!WYG editors, or blog and CMS software that runs on the site itself... They have to adjust for changes too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Fink said:<br />
Second, if you view standards-based features as a product (which it is), the supplier chain looks like this:</p>
<p>1) Browser makers<br />
2) Authors (the people who create sites)<br />
3) Users</p>
<p>&#8230; don&#8217;t forget those who make the tools to help authors create sites&#8230; that&#8217;s another level, whether they be editors, syntax checkers, WYWI!WYG editors, or blog and CMS software that runs on the site itself&#8230; They have to adjust for changes too.</p>
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		<title>By: JeffW</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-310096</link>
		<dc:creator>JeffW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 22:32:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-310096</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty strong for meeting the standards when possible, and when browsers implement them, but this brings to mind a quote I saw recently. 

I don&#039;t have the exact quote handy, but it was to the effect that standards writers aren&#039;t the top of the food chain, they&#039;re at the bottom, and what they write has no meaning unless someone decides to use their implementation.  (fwiw, I think it might have been by someone involved with the html v5 team)

I&#039;m a hardware design engineer, and we&#039;ve long had to face the difference between documented standards and &#039;accepted/implemented standards.&#039;  Sometimes the documented isn&#039;t ultimately the right way to go, either due to poor decisions made in that standard, or due to the need to match other not-quite-spec implementations.  

So, ultimately, while we usually want browser makers and others to meet the written standards as closely as possible, there may be times when that is the wrong choice.  Perhaps the spec should be changed.  Contrary to popular belief, they aren&#039;t gospel written in stone and blessed by God.  ;-)

In this case you mention, I&#039;d ask:

... did anyone consider changing the html/css standards to better reflect a working and established reality?   

(instead of branching the implementations still further with more modes?)

... and was there some reason that the way the spec changed the behavior from the accepted/established was wise or advantageous technically?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty strong for meeting the standards when possible, and when browsers implement them, but this brings to mind a quote I saw recently. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t have the exact quote handy, but it was to the effect that standards writers aren&#8217;t the top of the food chain, they&#8217;re at the bottom, and what they write has no meaning unless someone decides to use their implementation.  (fwiw, I think it might have been by someone involved with the html v5 team)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a hardware design engineer, and we&#8217;ve long had to face the difference between documented standards and &#8216;accepted/implemented standards.&#8217;  Sometimes the documented isn&#8217;t ultimately the right way to go, either due to poor decisions made in that standard, or due to the need to match other not-quite-spec implementations.  </p>
<p>So, ultimately, while we usually want browser makers and others to meet the written standards as closely as possible, there may be times when that is the wrong choice.  Perhaps the spec should be changed.  Contrary to popular belief, they aren&#8217;t gospel written in stone and blessed by God.  ;-)</p>
<p>In this case you mention, I&#8217;d ask:</p>
<p>&#8230; did anyone consider changing the html/css standards to better reflect a working and established reality?   </p>
<p>(instead of branching the implementations still further with more modes?)</p>
<p>&#8230; and was there some reason that the way the spec changed the behavior from the accepted/established was wise or advantageous technically?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hoopskier</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-309429</link>
		<dc:creator>hoopskier</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2008 02:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-309429</guid>
		<description>&quot;The truth, of course, was that we were actually fixing something, and every other browser got this wrong.&quot;

So at that time, *nobody* was following the CSS spec when it came to this scenario?  Sounds to me like the spec was wrong, not the browsers... :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The truth, of course, was that we were actually fixing something, and every other browser got this wrong.&#8221;</p>
<p>So at that time, *nobody* was following the CSS spec when it came to this scenario?  Sounds to me like the spec was wrong, not the browsers&#8230; :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: michael paige</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-309150</link>
		<dc:creator>michael paige</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-309150</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t like this for a lot of reasons. Many of them already stated by others.

But if there is no stopping this on the whole, I&#039;d like to suggest it be a switch that could be placed inside a CSS file, and not in the HTML.

I have sites that have a lot of template files/master pages, and these would all have to be updated, however CSS files are few, and there is usually a single master (or could be!) that could contain this switch.

This would make testing/QA easier since I would only need to update one file to test an entire site. It could be as simple as:

html { filter: XUACompatible.Microsoft.RenderMode( ie=&#039;8&#039;); }

It would also give us a way to target previous/future browsers.

I could have a &#039;*rendermode.css*&#039; file with this in it, and simply import it into my global.

In a different scenario developers could also do:


&lt;!--[if IE 8]&gt;--&gt;
html { filter: XUACompatible.Microsoft.RenderMode( ie=&#039;8&#039; ); }


&lt;!--[if IE 9]&gt;--&gt;
html { filter: XUACompatible.Microsoft.RenderIEMode( ie=&#039;edge&#039; ); }


But like I said, I&#039;m against having to put this in the HTML - this however would simply be an alternate. Right now there is only the META tag. I prefer having more options.

The last thing I think this might prevent is mass proliferation. CSS files are not typically CMS/application templates, so this being built in by default is less of a possibility (it could still happen though, I&#039;m sure). It could certainly be a code snippet, but only the developers who know what it is would use it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t like this for a lot of reasons. Many of them already stated by others.</p>
<p>But if there is no stopping this on the whole, I&#8217;d like to suggest it be a switch that could be placed inside a CSS file, and not in the HTML.</p>
<p>I have sites that have a lot of template files/master pages, and these would all have to be updated, however CSS files are few, and there is usually a single master (or could be!) that could contain this switch.</p>
<p>This would make testing/QA easier since I would only need to update one file to test an entire site. It could be as simple as:</p>
<p>html { filter: XUACompatible.Microsoft.RenderMode( ie=&#8217;8&#8242;); }</p>
<p>It would also give us a way to target previous/future browsers.</p>
<p>I could have a &#8216;*rendermode.css*&#8217; file with this in it, and simply import it into my global.</p>
<p>In a different scenario developers could also do:</p>
<p><!--[if IE 8]&gt;--><br />
html { filter: XUACompatible.Microsoft.RenderMode( ie=&#8217;8&#8242; ); }</p>
<p><!--[if IE 9]&gt;--><br />
html { filter: XUACompatible.Microsoft.RenderIEMode( ie=&#8217;edge&#8217; ); }</p>
<p>But like I said, I&#8217;m against having to put this in the HTML &#8211; this however would simply be an alternate. Right now there is only the META tag. I prefer having more options.</p>
<p>The last thing I think this might prevent is mass proliferation. CSS files are not typically CMS/application templates, so this being built in by default is less of a possibility (it could still happen though, I&#8217;m sure). It could certainly be a code snippet, but only the developers who know what it is would use it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: The State of the Craft (HTML) &#124; commadot.com</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-308617</link>
		<dc:creator>The State of the Craft (HTML) &#124; commadot.com</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2008 02:32:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-308617</guid>
		<description>[...] just recently saw this posting by Eric Meyer on how browser makers and big companies interact and how browsers (and developers) are put in a bad situation.  The short version is: Browser [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] just recently saw this posting by Eric Meyer on how browser makers and big companies interact and how browsers (and developers) are put in a bad situation.  The short version is: Browser [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben Davies</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-308094</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Davies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 12:52:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-308094</guid>
		<description>Eric, I just wanted to say that this story has clearly illustrated the frustration so of the IEDev team to me. I can actually see the issue from their perspective at last, so thanks!

However, I still don&#039;t agree with thier proposal :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, I just wanted to say that this story has clearly illustrated the frustration so of the IEDev team to me. I can actually see the issue from their perspective at last, so thanks!</p>
<p>However, I still don&#8217;t agree with thier proposal :)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: purplehaze.me.uk &#187; Internet Explorer and web standards</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-307708</link>
		<dc:creator>purplehaze.me.uk &#187; Internet Explorer and web standards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2008 23:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comment-307708</guid>
		<description>[...] Eric Meyer discusses how when he was working at Netscape how they wanted to release a standards compliant browser but were forced to “quirkify” it due to it breaking websites. They tried contacting the producers of these websites, but they were not interested in conforming to standards to make it work in a browser, &#8220;its your problem&#8221;. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Eric Meyer discusses how when he was working at Netscape how they wanted to release a standards compliant browser but were forced to “quirkify” it due to it breaking websites. They tried contacting the producers of these websites, but they were not interested in conforming to standards to make it work in a browser, &#8220;its your problem&#8221;. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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<div class="entry">
<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Almost Target">Almost Target</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Thu 24 Jan 2008</li>
<li class="time">1712</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/browsers/" title="View all posts in Browsers" rel="category tag">Browsers</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/personal/history/" title="View all posts in History" rel="category tag">History</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/01/24/almost-target/#comments">81 responses</a></li>
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<div class="text">
<p>
I&#8217;d like to tell you a little story, if I may, from way, way back in 2002.  (The exact date is lost to the mists of time, but the year is pretty solid.)  Like a lot of stories, it&#8217;s little bit long; but unlike some stories, it&#8217;s true.
</p>
<p>
As the engineering staff at Netscape prepared a new release of Mozilla, the browser off which we branched Navigator, those of us in the Technology Evangelism/Developer Support (TEDS) team were testing it against high-ranked and partner sites.  On a few of those sites, we discovered that layouts were breaking apart.  In one case, it did so quite severely.
</p>
<p>
It didn&#8217;t take much to see that the problem was with sliced images in layout tables.  For some reason, on some sites they were getting pushed apart.  After a bit of digging, we realized the reason: the Gecko engine had updated its line-layout model to be more compliant with the CSS specification.  Now images always sat on the baseline (unless otherwise directed) and the descender space was always preserved.
</p>
<p>
This was pretty new in browserdom, because every other browser did what browsers had always done: shrink-wrapped table cells to an image if there was no other cell content.  The only problem was that behavior was wrong.  Fixing the flaws in the CSS implementation in Gecko had broken these sites&#8217; layouts.  That is, it broke them in standards mode.  In quirks mode, Gecko rolled its behavior back to the old days and did the shrink-wrap thing.
</p>
<p>
We got in touch with the web team at one of the affected sites, a very prominent social networking site (of a sort) of the day, and explained the situation.  We already knew they couldn&#8217;t change their DOCTYPE to trigger quirks mode, because that would break other things they were doing.  We couldn&#8217;t offer them a simple CSS fix like <code>td img {vertical-align: bottom;}</code>, because their whole layout was in tables and that would throw off the placement of all their images, not just the sliced ones.  All we could offer was an explanation of the problem and to recommend they <code>class</code> all of their sliced images and use CSS to bottom them out, with assurances that this would cause no change in other browsers.
</p>
<p>
Their response was, in effect:  &#8220;No.  This is your problem.  Every other browser gets this right, and we&#8217;re not mucking around in our templates and adding classes all over just because you broke something.&#8221;
</p>
<p>
The truth, of course, was that we were actually <em>fixing</em> something, and every other browser got this <em>wrong</em>.  The truth was not relevant to our problem.  It seemed we had a choice: we could back out the improvement to our handling of the CSS specification; or we could break the site and all the other sites like it, which at the time were many.  Neither was really palatable.  And word was we could not ship without fixing this problem, whether by getting the site updated or the browser changed.  Those were the options.
</p>
<p>
Let me reiterate the situation we faced.  We:
</p>

<ol>
<li>Had improved standards support in the browser, and then</li>
<li>Found sites whose layouts broke as a result</li>
<li>Whose developers point-blank refused to alter their sites</li>
<li>And we had to fix the problem</li>
</ol>

<p>
We couldn&#8217;t back out the improvement; it affected all text displayed in the browser and touched too many other things.  We couldn&#8217;t make the site&#8217;s web team change anything, no matter how many times we told them this was part of the advance of web standards and better browser behavior.  Two roads diverged in a yellow web, and we could choose neither.
</p>
<p>
So we found a third way: <a href="http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Gecko%27s_Almost_Standards_Mode">&#8220;almost standards&#8221; mode</a>, a companion to the usual modes of quirks and standards.  Yes, this is the reason why &#8220;almost standards&#8221; mode exists.  If I remember the internal argument properly, its existence is largely my fault; so to everyone who&#8217;s had to implement an &#8220;almost standards&#8221; mode in a non-Gecko browser in order to mirror what we did, I&#8217;m sorry.
</p>
<p>
We made &#8220;almost standards&#8221; mode apply to the DOCTYPE found on the offending site&#8212;an XHTML DOCTYPE, I should point out.  While we were at it, we rolled in IBM&#8217;s custom DTD.  They were using it make their site validate while doing all kinds of HTML-invalid stuff, and they were experiencing the same layout problem.  And lo: a third layout mode was born.  All because some sites were badly done and would not update to accommodate our improvements.  We did it so as not to break a small (but popular) portion of the web while we advanced our standards support.
</p>
<p>
(By the way, it was this very same incident that gave birth to the article &#8220;<a href="http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Images,_Tables,_and_Mysterious_Gaps">Images, Tables, and Mysterious Gaps</a>&#8220;.)
</p>
<p>
Now take that situation and multiply it by a few orders of magnitude, and you get an idea of what the IE team faces.  It&#8217;s right where we were at Netscape: caught between our past mistakes and a site&#8217;s refusal to accommodate our desire to improve support for open standards.
</p>
<p>
Some have said that Microsoft is in a unique position to take leadership and spread the news of improved standards and updating old sites to its customers.  That&#8217;s true.  But what happens when a multi-billion dollar partner corporation refuses to update and demands, under the terms of its very large service contract and its very steep penalty clauses, that a new version of IE not break (for whatever value of &#8220;break&#8221; you like) its corporate intranet, or its public e-commerce site?  It only takes one to create a pretty large roadblock.
</p>
<p>
For all we did in publishing great content to DevEdge, proactively helping sites to update their markup and CSS and JS to work with Gecko (while not breaking in other browsers), and helping guide the improvement of standards support in Gecko, we could not overcome this obstacle.  We had to work around it.
</p>
<p>
Looking back on it now, it&#8217;s likely this experience subconsciously predisposed me to eventually accept the version targeting proposal, because in a fairly substantial way, it&#8217;s what we did to Mozilla under similar conditions.  We just did it in a much more obscure and ultimately fragile manner, tying it to certain DOCTYPEs instead of some more reliable anchor.  If we could have given that site (all those sites) an easy way to say &#8220;render like Mozilla 0.9&#8243; (or whatever) at the top of every page, or in the server headers, they might have taken it.
</p>
<p>
But had we offered and they refused, putting us back to the choice of backing out the improvements or changing the browser, would we have set things up to default to the specific, known version of Mozilla instead of the latest and greatest?  The idealist in me likes to think not.  The pragmatist in me nods yes.  What else could we have done in that circumstance?  Shipped a browser that broke a top-ten site on the theory that once it was in the wild, they&#8217;d acquiesce?  Even knowing that this would noticeably and, in a few cases, seriously degrade the browsing experience for <em>our</em> users?  No.  We&#8217;d have shipped without the CSS improvement, or we&#8217;d have put in the targeting with the wrong default.  We didn&#8217;t have version targeting, but we still made the same choice, only we hinged it on the DOCTYPE.
</p>
<p>
A short-term fix for a short-term problem: yes.  Yet had we not done it, how long would Netscape/Mozilla&#8217;s standards support have suffered, waiting for the day that we could add that improvement back in without breaking too many sites that too many people would notice?  Years, possibly.  So we put in a badly implemented type of version targeting, which allowed us to improve our standards support more quickly than we otherwise would have, and it has been with us for the more than half a decade since.
</p>
<p>
So maybe I&#8217;m more sympathetic to the IE predicament and their proposed solution because I&#8217;ve been there and done it already.  Not to nearly the same degree, but the dilemma seemed no less daunting for all the difference in scale.  It&#8217;s something worth keeping in mind while evaluating what I&#8217;ve said on this topic, and whatever I will say in the future.
</p>
</div>

</div>

</div>
<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

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<li><a href="http://tweetagewasteland.com/2010/03/my-head-is-in-the-cloud/" title="March 18 | &#8220;I sense that my addiction to the realtime stream is only making room for the consumption of a faster stream.&#8221;">My Head is in the Cloud</a> <small>[via <a href="http://daringfireball.net/">John</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://8bitnyc.com/" title="March 17 | All of a sudden I want to establish a mission in Central Park and negotiate with the natives for gold and food.">8-Bit NYC</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFicqklGuB0&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="March 12 | Wry comment expressing my appreciation of the creative derivativeness of this video and its uncanny accuracy in mocking common tropes.">Academy Award Winning Movie Trailer</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414TmP12WAU" title="March 9 | &#8220;Apple juice&#8230; for half price!&#8221;  More like twice PRICELESS.  (Note: If you&#8217;re at work, don your headphones.)">Happy in Paraguay</a> <small>[via <a href="http://unstoppablerobotninja.com/">Ethan</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V5ubAOeOBk&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="February 10 | This is approximately the best thing ever.">U900 -Walk Don&#8217;t Run (Isogabamaware)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201002/sifr_default_css_hides_content_from_at_least_one_screen_reader/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A 456bereastreet %28456 Berea Street%29" title="February 8 | -9999px comes through again, but I really wish we were beyond that kind of thing.">sIFR default CSS hides content from at least one screen reader</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20100117064356428" title="February 8 | Storing this for future use.">Take a picture with the iSight camera when a folder is opened</a></li>
<li><a href="http://mingle2.com/blog/view/web-developer-mind" title="February 4 | Mostly valid.  (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?)">The Mind of a Web Developer: An Illustrated Diagram</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/news/science_channel_refuses_to_dumb" title="January 28 | &#8220;Punkin Chunkin, for Christ&#8217;s sake&#8230; What more do you people want?&#8221;">Science Channel Refuses To Dumb Down Science Any Further</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.mailchimp.com/blog/project-omnivore-declassified/" title="January 27 | Sounds like quite a feat.  But I wonder how we&#8217;d feel if Microsoft or Google announced the same kind of thing on their e-mail services.">MailChimp&#8217;s Project Omnivore: Declassified</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/25/carolyn-maloney/congresswoman-says-democratic-presidents-create-mo/" title="January 26 | &#8220;Obviously, luck matters a lot, but when there is a consistent pattern over more than 60 years, it starts to look like more than just luck.&#8221;">Congresswoman says Democratic presidents create more private-sector jobs</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_mali_what_teachers_make.html" title="January 25 | Truth.">Taylor Mali: What teachers make</a></li>
<li><a href="http://notebook.johnmartz.com/how-websites-work?c=1" title="January 22 | At last, the truth is out and I can stop pretending:  beatific monkeys are what makes it all go.">How websites work</a></li>
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