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	<title>Comments on: Non-Quotidian Problems</title>
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		<item>
		<title>By: Paul D. Waite</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-332046</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul D. Waite</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Mar 2008 23:37:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-332046</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-318405&quot;&gt;the q tag is html&quot;s semantic answer to an inline quote (as opposed to blockquote). why they have to render with delimiting quotation marks is anybody&quot;s guess. some european countries use different punctuation marks for quotes&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think the idea is that browsers should render the appropriate quote marks for their locale. So in theory, in you&quot;re browsing in France, &lt;q&gt; elements should be rendered with the double-arrow-style quotes. I&quot;ve never tested to see which browsers do what.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote cite="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-318405"><p>the q tag is html&#8221;s semantic answer to an inline quote (as opposed to blockquote). why they have to render with delimiting quotation marks is anybody&#8221;s guess. some european countries use different punctuation marks for quotes</p></blockquote>
<p>I think the idea is that browsers should render the appropriate quote marks for their locale. So in theory, in you&#8221;re browsing in France, &lt;q&gt; elements should be rendered with the double-arrow-style quotes. I&#8221;ve never tested to see which browsers do what.</p>
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		<title>By: ramon</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-318405</link>
		<dc:creator>ramon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2008 13:53:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-318405</guid>
		<description>the q tag is html&#039;s semantic answer to an inline quote (as opposed to blockquote). why they have to render with delimiting quotation marks is anybody&#039;s guess. some european countries use different punctuation marks for quotes. so i support eric&#039;s attempt at suppressing the default behaviour.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>the q tag is html&#8217;s semantic answer to an inline quote (as opposed to blockquote). why they have to render with delimiting quotation marks is anybody&#8217;s guess. some european countries use different punctuation marks for quotes. so i support eric&#8217;s attempt at suppressing the default behaviour.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Callum</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317765</link>
		<dc:creator>Callum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 08:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317765</guid>
		<description>Just stop using &lt;code&gt;q&lt;/code&gt; tags. That should work. Does anyone benefit from them? Why are quotations any more deserving of a dedicated tag than questions, sentences, clauses, or any other lexical units?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just stop using <code>q</code> tags. That should work. Does anyone benefit from them? Why are quotations any more deserving of a dedicated tag than questions, sentences, clauses, or any other lexical units?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317702</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 02:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317702</guid>
		<description>Well, I keep running into these little snags, Ben.  It will happen.  (Actually, it already has, but I&#039;m trying to get all the kinks worked out before publishing it.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I keep running into these little snags, Ben.  It will happen.  (Actually, it already has, but I&#8217;m trying to get all the kinks worked out before publishing it.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ben</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317678</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 01:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317678</guid>
		<description>When is the reset.css getting its own URL as your promised Eric!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When is the reset.css getting its own URL as your promised Eric!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CW Petersen</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317579</link>
		<dc:creator>CW Petersen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 20:48:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317579</guid>
		<description>For :nth-child you might look to Alex Bischoff&#039;s Alistapart article &lt;a href=&quot;http://alistapart.com/articles/keepelementskidsinlinewithoffspring&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Keeping Your Elements&quot; Kids in Line with Offspring&lt;/a&gt;, though I didn&#039;t see anything in it about siblings. 8^(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For :nth-child you might look to Alex Bischoff&#8217;s Alistapart article <a href="http://alistapart.com/articles/keepelementskidsinlinewithoffspring" rel="nofollow">Keeping Your Elements&#8221; Kids in Line with Offspring</a>, though I didn&#8217;t see anything in it about siblings. 8^(</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Aristotle Pagaltzis</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317113</link>
		<dc:creator>Aristotle Pagaltzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 02:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317113</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;it&quot;s ignored by Safari 2&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So that&quot;s what I was missing. Well, sigh.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>it&#8221;s ignored by Safari 2</p></blockquote>
<p>So that&#8221;s what I was missing. Well, sigh.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Paul Chaplin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317008</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Chaplin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-317008</guid>
		<description>Hi Eric,

I&#039;ve only just replied to your comment on my blog, as I hadn&#039;t seen it until now - apologies for not approving it and replying sooner.

I was also reminded of the &lt;code&gt;cursor&lt;/code&gt; trick - CSS, while imperfect in implementation and arguably spec, can be rather convenient at times, given the way it&#039;s designed. I&#039;m quite entertained by &lt;code&gt;content: normal;&lt;/code&gt; behaving differently in what I&#039;d otherwise consider highly standards-compliant engines - I can&#039;t quite decide which interpretation I favour (is there &quot;normative spec&quot; with guidance, I wonder?). Thanks for putting the time in on this.

@David Baron &amp; Daniel: I discovered the CSS 2.x difference only four weeks ago, when browsing SitePoint&#039;s nice new &lt;a href=&quot;http://reference.sitepoint.com/css&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CSS reference&lt;/a&gt; - they had the &lt;code&gt;content&lt;/code&gt; property listed as being in both CSS 2 and 2.1, but the &lt;code&gt;none&lt;/code&gt; value wasn&#039;t listed, and I was sure I&#039;d seen it elsewhere before (they&#039;ve now added it, after a friendly prod). I&#039;m surprised to hear that Gecko doesn&#039;t support it pre-1.9, though. It &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.paulchaplin.com/lab/css/quirky-quotes/content-none.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;seems&lt;/a&gt; to work in Konqueror 3.5.8, but not the recent-ish WebKit build I&#039;m using. Thanks for the heads-up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Eric,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve only just replied to your comment on my blog, as I hadn&#8217;t seen it until now &#8211; apologies for not approving it and replying sooner.</p>
<p>I was also reminded of the <code>cursor</code> trick &#8211; CSS, while imperfect in implementation and arguably spec, can be rather convenient at times, given the way it&#8217;s designed. I&#8217;m quite entertained by <code>content: normal;</code> behaving differently in what I&#8217;d otherwise consider highly standards-compliant engines &#8211; I can&#8217;t quite decide which interpretation I favour (is there &#8220;normative spec&#8221; with guidance, I wonder?). Thanks for putting the time in on this.</p>
<p>@David Baron &amp; Daniel: I discovered the CSS 2.x difference only four weeks ago, when browsing SitePoint&#8217;s nice new <a href="http://reference.sitepoint.com/css" rel="nofollow">CSS reference</a> &#8211; they had the <code>content</code> property listed as being in both CSS 2 and 2.1, but the <code>none</code> value wasn&#8217;t listed, and I was sure I&#8217;d seen it elsewhere before (they&#8217;ve now added it, after a friendly prod). I&#8217;m surprised to hear that Gecko doesn&#8217;t support it pre-1.9, though. It <a href="http://www.paulchaplin.com/lab/css/quirky-quotes/content-none.html" rel="nofollow">seems</a> to work in Konqueror 3.5.8, but not the recent-ish WebKit build I&#8217;m using. Thanks for the heads-up.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316999</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316999</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Why don&quot;t you just use &quot;&lt;code&gt;quotes: &#039;&#039; &#039;&#039;&lt;/code&gt;&quot;?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Because it&#039;s ignored by Safari 2, just like &lt;code&gt;quotes: none&lt;/code&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Why don&#8221;t you just use &#8220;<code>quotes: '' ''</code>&#8220;?</p></blockquote>
<p>Because it&#8217;s ignored by Safari 2, just like <code>quotes: none</code>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Aristotle Pagaltzis</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316994</link>
		<dc:creator>Aristotle Pagaltzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 21:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316994</guid>
		<description>Am I missing something? Why don&quot;t you just use “&lt;code&gt;quotes: &#039;&#039; &#039;&#039;&lt;/code&gt;”? That will set the opening and closing quote characters both to the empty string, producing exactly the intended effect. My testing hasn&quot;t been thorough by any stretch, but I&quot;ve had no surprises so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I missing something? Why don&#8221;t you just use “<code>quotes: '' ''</code>”? That will set the opening and closing quote characters both to the empty string, producing exactly the intended effect. My testing hasn&#8221;t been thorough by any stretch, but I&#8221;ve had no surprises so far.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: David Baron</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316894</link>
		<dc:creator>David Baron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 18:19:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316894</guid>
		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, &#039;content:none&#039; is a relatively recent spec addition; it&#039;s in CSS 2.1 (partly to match future plans for css3) but was not in CSS 2.0.

(&#039;quotes:none&#039; works fine for me in both Firefox 2.0 and in the latest Firefox 3 builds.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, &#8216;content:none&#8217; is a relatively recent spec addition; it&#8217;s in CSS 2.1 (partly to match future plans for css3) but was not in CSS 2.0.</p>
<p>(&#8216;quotes:none&#8217; works fine for me in both Firefox 2.0 and in the latest Firefox 3 builds.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: David Naylor</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316859</link>
		<dc:creator>David Naylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316859</guid>
		<description>The content: none seems to be working in Firefox 3 anyway...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The content: none seems to be working in Firefox 3 anyway&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316850</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316850</guid>
		<description>&lt;code&gt;content: none&lt;/code&gt; will be included in Firefox 3 (Gecko 1.9). You may want to test it there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><code>content: none</code> will be included in Firefox 3 (Gecko 1.9). You may want to test it there.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Devon</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316842</link>
		<dc:creator>Devon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 16:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comment-316842</guid>
		<description>So now I&#039;m curious which browser you were testing in</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So now I&#8217;m curious which browser you were testing in</p>
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<div class="entry">
<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Non-Quotidian Problems">Non-Quotidian Problems</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Fri 8 Feb 2008</li>
<li class="time">0905</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/css/" title="View all posts in CSS" rel="category tag">CSS</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/02/08/non-quotidian-problems/#comments">14 responses</a></li>
<li></li><li></li></ul>

<div class="text">
<p>
After I published the latest iteration of the reset styles, <a href="http://www.paulchaplin.com/">Paul Chaplin</a> pointed out that my simplification of the quote-suppressing rules actually broke the intended effect in Safari 2<del datetime="2008-02-08T21:39:14+00:00">, Gecko variants , and so on</del>.  This happened because I assumed support for <code>quotes: none</code>, and it just isn&#8217;t there in most browsers.  Apparently, I was testing <em>IN THE FUTURE!</em> that day.
</p>
<p>
&#8220;Well, no problem,&#8221; I thought to myself, &#8220;I&#8217;ll use <code>content: none</code> instead&#8221;.  Nope.  Even in browsers that support generated content, support for the <code>content</code> value <code>none</code> appears to have fallen through the cracks.  Using it completely fails to suppress the generation of content, so far as <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/quote-suppress.html">my testing</a> can determine.  Even more amusingly, <code>content: normal</code> prevents the insertion of quotation marks in Camino (and probably other Geckos), but not Safari.
</p>
<p>
So we&#8217;re back to explicitly forcing the assignment of empty content boxes in order to stop the insertion of quote marks: <code>content: '';</code>.  Oh, joy.  Paul had <a href="http://www.paulchaplin.com/blog/css-reset-and-quirky-quotes">come to the same conclusion</a>, and worked out a nice little fallback set that reminds me of <a href="http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Giving_'cursor'_a_Hand">the <code>cursor</code> trick</a> that gets you a hand-pointing icon in both IE and the rest of the world, only his trick is completely valid.  So I&#8217;ll be adding that in, along with some thanks to Paul.
</p>
<p>
For my next magic trick, maybe I&#8217;ll base a reset rule on <code>:nth-child()</code> and see what people invent to simulate the intended effect.
</p>
</div>

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</div>
<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

</div><div id="extra"><div class="panel" id="archipelago"><h4>Identity Archipelago</h4><ul><li><a href="http://flickr.com/photos/meyerweb/" rel="me">Flickr</a></li><li><a href="http://twitter.com/meyerweb/" rel="me">Twitter</a></li><li><a href="http://dopplr.com/traveller/meyerweb">Dopplr</a></li><li><a href="http://www.linkedin.com/in/meyerweb" rel="me">LinkedIn</a></li><li><a href="http://technorati.com/profile/emeyer" rel="me">Technorati</a></li></ul></div><div class="panel" id="pointers"><h4>Projects Elsewhere</h4><ul><li><a href="http://aneventapart.com/">An Event Apart</a></li><li><a href="http://complexspiral.com/">Complex Spiral Consulting</a></li><li><a href="http://www.webassist.com/go/css/emeyer/">CSS Sculptor</a></li><li><a href="http://css-discuss.org/">css-discuss</a></li><li><a href="http://microformats.org/">Microformats</a></li><li><a href="http://s5project.org/">S5</a></li></ul></div><div class="panel" id="tour"><ul><li><a href="http://fray.com/issue3/"><img src="http://fray.com/images/i3c.gif" alt="Fray Contributor (Issue 3: Sex &amp; Death)" /></a></li><!-- <li><a href="http://www.webassist.com/go/css/emeyer/"><img src="/pix/CS_ad_180x109.jpg" alt="CSS Sculptor for Dreamweaver" style="max-width: 100%;" /></a></li> --></ul></div><div class="panel">
<h4>Recently Tweeted</h4>
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<p>Now that Congress has passed health insurance reform, is there any sign they're thinking about reforming health care as well? <small>&#8211;tweeted 4 hours, 54 minutes ago</small></p>
</div><div id="sideblog" class="panel">
<h4>Distractions</h4>
<p class="more">
<a href="/eric/thoughts/recent-links/">archive</a>
</p>
<ul>
<li><a href="http://tweetagewasteland.com/2010/03/my-head-is-in-the-cloud/" title="March 18 | &#8220;I sense that my addiction to the realtime stream is only making room for the consumption of a faster stream.&#8221;">My Head is in the Cloud</a> <small>[via <a href="http://daringfireball.net/">John</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://8bitnyc.com/" title="March 17 | All of a sudden I want to establish a mission in Central Park and negotiate with the natives for gold and food.">8-Bit NYC</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFicqklGuB0&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="March 12 | Wry comment expressing my appreciation of the creative derivativeness of this video and its uncanny accuracy in mocking common tropes.">Academy Award Winning Movie Trailer</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=414TmP12WAU" title="March 9 | &#8220;Apple juice&#8230; for half price!&#8221;  More like twice PRICELESS.  (Note: If you&#8217;re at work, don your headphones.)">Happy in Paraguay</a> <small>[via <a href="http://unstoppablerobotninja.com/">Ethan</a>]</small></li>
<li><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V5ubAOeOBk&amp;feature=player_embedded" title="February 10 | This is approximately the best thing ever.">U900 -Walk Don&#8217;t Run (Isogabamaware)</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/201002/sifr_default_css_hides_content_from_at_least_one_screen_reader/?utm_source=feedburner&amp;utm_medium=feed&amp;utm_campaign=Feed%3A 456bereastreet %28456 Berea Street%29" title="February 8 | -9999px comes through again, but I really wish we were beyond that kind of thing.">sIFR default CSS hides content from at least one screen reader</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20100117064356428" title="February 8 | Storing this for future use.">Take a picture with the iSight camera when a folder is opened</a></li>
<li><a href="http://mingle2.com/blog/view/web-developer-mind" title="February 4 | Mostly valid.  (SEE WHAT I DID THERE?)">The Mind of a Web Developer: An Illustrated Diagram</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.theonion.com/content/news/science_channel_refuses_to_dumb" title="January 28 | &#8220;Punkin Chunkin, for Christ&#8217;s sake&#8230; What more do you people want?&#8221;">Science Channel Refuses To Dumb Down Science Any Further</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.mailchimp.com/blog/project-omnivore-declassified/" title="January 27 | Sounds like quite a feat.  But I wonder how we&#8217;d feel if Microsoft or Google announced the same kind of thing on their e-mail services.">MailChimp&#8217;s Project Omnivore: Declassified</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/25/carolyn-maloney/congresswoman-says-democratic-presidents-create-mo/" title="January 26 | &#8220;Obviously, luck matters a lot, but when there is a consistent pattern over more than 60 years, it starts to look like more than just luck.&#8221;">Congresswoman says Democratic presidents create more private-sector jobs</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_mali_what_teachers_make.html" title="January 25 | Truth.">Taylor Mali: What teachers make</a></li>
<li><a href="http://notebook.johnmartz.com/how-websites-work?c=1" title="January 22 | At last, the truth is out and I can stop pretending:  beatific monkeys are what makes it all go.">How websites work</a></li>
</ul>
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<a href="http://blogadvisorysystem.com/"><img src="/pix/bas/guarded.png" alt="Blog Advisory System Alert Level: Guarded"></a>
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<h4>The <a href="/feeds/excuse/">excuse of the day</a> is</h4>
<p>Republicans</p>
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