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	<title>Comments on: Acid Redux</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: OddesE</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-385691</link>
		<dc:creator>OddesE</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:54:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-385691</guid>
		<description>To me any test that includes a call to addEventListener (thus forcing IE to implement it if they want to pass) is driving the web forward.

I see a lot of people that underestimate the amount of time that goes into fixing up the little edge cases. If Acid 3 helps fix some of those cases it will be a big win!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To me any test that includes a call to addEventListener (thus forcing IE to implement it if they want to pass) is driving the web forward.</p>
<p>I see a lot of people that underestimate the amount of time that goes into fixing up the little edge cases. If Acid 3 helps fix some of those cases it will be a big win!</p>
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		<title>By: Waleof Suous</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-374576</link>
		<dc:creator>Waleof Suous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 07:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-374576</guid>
		<description>There are actually exhaustive tests already exist, for example the plethora of test suites available in W3C, just that it seems no one publicizes them too much since there are too many and no one can dream of passing them all in the forseeable future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are actually exhaustive tests already exist, for example the plethora of test suites available in W3C, just that it seems no one publicizes them too much since there are too many and no one can dream of passing them all in the forseeable future.</p>
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		<title>By: Alexander Sperl (dorkydesign) &#8212; Blog &#8212; Blog Archive &#187; Acid3</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-353785</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Sperl (dorkydesign) &#8212; Blog &#8212; Blog Archive &#187; Acid3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 10:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-353785</guid>
		<description>[...] http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/" rel="nofollow">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-350648</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-350648</guid>
		<description>With what little I know, Acid tests seem born out of pain points web developers have and pushing those standards we&#039;ve all been waiting for.  And I can only see that as a good thing, exhaustive tests would be great too, but I am very glad for the Acid tests and the progress we&#039;ve seen lately.

It&#039;s almost like a standards marketing campaign, and I feel the web is better for it.  Exhaustive test suites will probably never make headlines, they don&#039;t put out the same amount of pressure.  

Honestly, the only browser I worry about hoop jumping is IE.  I trust WebKit and Opera and Firefox to make something out of any initial hoop jumping they do.  And AcidN can hold them to it.  Microsoft, not so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With what little I know, Acid tests seem born out of pain points web developers have and pushing those standards we&#8217;ve all been waiting for.  And I can only see that as a good thing, exhaustive tests would be great too, but I am very glad for the Acid tests and the progress we&#8217;ve seen lately.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s almost like a standards marketing campaign, and I feel the web is better for it.  Exhaustive test suites will probably never make headlines, they don&#8217;t put out the same amount of pressure.  </p>
<p>Honestly, the only browser I worry about hoop jumping is IE.  I trust WebKit and Opera and Firefox to make something out of any initial hoop jumping they do.  And AcidN can hold them to it.  Microsoft, not so much.</p>
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		<title>By: David Storey</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-349993</link>
		<dc:creator>David Storey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 20:48:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-349993</guid>
		<description>Dave:  There are a number of test suites, although more are always needed.  The CSS3.info selectors test has been mentioned in the comments.  Daniel Glazman also has an interesting Selectors test &lt;a href=&quot;http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/css3tests/selectorTest.html#target&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (Opera is the only browser I know that passes, though Konqueror may, and WebKit are improving).  David Baron supplied a number of CSS3 Color tests &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Color/20070927/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; (If you discount flavor and color-profile which may be dropped, all None-IE browsers fare well - Opera having added HSLA, RGBA and CSS3 transparent in the ACID3 build).  There is a full CSS2.1 test suite, but there are many test cases, so I&#039;m not went through them all by hand.  SVG1.1 has a full test suite, with results &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  SVG 1.2 Tiny also has a beta test suite, but the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20070907/matrix.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;implementation report&lt;/a&gt; only mentions one browser.

I don&#039;t really know many good ECMAScript or DOM tests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave:  There are a number of test suites, although more are always needed.  The CSS3.info selectors test has been mentioned in the comments.  Daniel Glazman also has an interesting Selectors test <a href="http://disruptive-innovations.com/zoo/css3tests/selectorTest.html#target" rel="nofollow">here</a> (Opera is the only browser I know that passes, though Konqueror may, and WebKit are improving).  David Baron supplied a number of CSS3 Color tests <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Color/20070927/" rel="nofollow">here</a> (If you discount flavor and color-profile which may be dropped, all None-IE browsers fare well &#8211; Opera having added HSLA, RGBA and CSS3 transparent in the ACID3 build).  There is a full CSS2.1 test suite, but there are many test cases, so I&#8217;m not went through them all by hand.  SVG1.1 has a full test suite, with results <a href="http://www.codedread.com/svg-support.php" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  SVG 1.2 Tiny also has a beta test suite, but the <a href="http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/Test/20070907/matrix.html" rel="nofollow">implementation report</a> only mentions one browser.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really know many good ECMAScript or DOM tests.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-349212</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Apr 2008 14:24:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-349212</guid>
		<description>Most of your points about testing are dead on, but I think some of them stop at &quot;I don&#039;t understand why&quot; instead of actually trying to understand and go forward.

IE7+Acid2 being treated differently than FF+Acid3?  In the exact same post, you point out some weaknesses of the Acid3 test -- maybe Acid2 was a more important test, and ignoring it was a more powerful statement?  Maybe web developers felt that the quality of IE&#039;s CSS support was behind the industry standard and that supporting Acid2 seemed like a goal clearly in line with the IE team&#039;s promise to improve CSS support?

So let&#039;s ask, why isn&#039;t there a comprehensive browser testing suite that is as widely known as Acid2?  Is there a suite yet, and it&#039;s just not widely known? Then let&#039;s work on promoting it.  Is there no suite yet? Then let&#039;s work on making one.  But I&#039;m tired of feeling like little league parents yelling from the stands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Most of your points about testing are dead on, but I think some of them stop at &#8220;I don&#8217;t understand why&#8221; instead of actually trying to understand and go forward.</p>
<p>IE7+Acid2 being treated differently than FF+Acid3?  In the exact same post, you point out some weaknesses of the Acid3 test &#8212; maybe Acid2 was a more important test, and ignoring it was a more powerful statement?  Maybe web developers felt that the quality of IE&#8217;s CSS support was behind the industry standard and that supporting Acid2 seemed like a goal clearly in line with the IE team&#8217;s promise to improve CSS support?</p>
<p>So let&#8217;s ask, why isn&#8217;t there a comprehensive browser testing suite that is as widely known as Acid2?  Is there a suite yet, and it&#8217;s just not widely known? Then let&#8217;s work on promoting it.  Is there no suite yet? Then let&#8217;s work on making one.  But I&#8217;m tired of feeling like little league parents yelling from the stands.</p>
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		<title>By: Faruk Ates</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344700</link>
		<dc:creator>Faruk Ates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 01:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344700</guid>
		<description>David: aye, I thought it was something like that but I didn&#039;t have the time to check anymore other than in the browser I had open.

Eric: good points you make; it would definitely have been better if the tests were all available as separate files with no JS whatsoever, and the existing test would serve simply as a shortcut / added feature.

Good feedback :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David: aye, I thought it was something like that but I didn&#8217;t have the time to check anymore other than in the browser I had open.</p>
<p>Eric: good points you make; it would definitely have been better if the tests were all available as separate files with no JS whatsoever, and the existing test would serve simply as a shortcut / added feature.</p>
<p>Good feedback :-)</p>
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		<title>By: David Storey</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344579</link>
		<dc:creator>David Storey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344579</guid>
		<description>Eric:  The Selectors test was done by someone in their spare time, and its not been updated in a while.  Your suggestions sound like good ones.  You&#039;re welcome (or anyone else) helping us improve it, if you do so wish.  I&#039;d like to do this for other modules as well.  I think Background and Borders is probably the most important at the moment (due to developer interest) and Basic UI (due to the lack of test suite to progress the module forward). 

 For browser vendors the javascript isn&#039;t really needed as we can plug the tests into our automated test harnesses, but automating the tests on the site increases the visibility hugely - Not many people are willing to sit through clicking each test, but are willing to press a button and look at the results. Allowing both, with a note about js dependancies for the automated would probably be best.  

Faruk:  Konqueror was first to pass the test, shortly followed by Opera.  Safari pssed recently, but I&#039;ve no idea if that credit goes to the fine folks at KDE or if it is a different implementation done by the Apple guys.  Gecko and whatever the new IE engine is called, have yet to pass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric:  The Selectors test was done by someone in their spare time, and its not been updated in a while.  Your suggestions sound like good ones.  You&#8217;re welcome (or anyone else) helping us improve it, if you do so wish.  I&#8217;d like to do this for other modules as well.  I think Background and Borders is probably the most important at the moment (due to developer interest) and Basic UI (due to the lack of test suite to progress the module forward). </p>
<p> For browser vendors the javascript isn&#8217;t really needed as we can plug the tests into our automated test harnesses, but automating the tests on the site increases the visibility hugely &#8211; Not many people are willing to sit through clicking each test, but are willing to press a button and look at the results. Allowing both, with a note about js dependancies for the automated would probably be best.  </p>
<p>Faruk:  Konqueror was first to pass the test, shortly followed by Opera.  Safari pssed recently, but I&#8217;ve no idea if that credit goes to the fine folks at KDE or if it is a different implementation done by the Apple guys.  Gecko and whatever the new IE engine is called, have yet to pass.</p>
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		<title>By: Lars Gunther</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344567</link>
		<dc:creator>Lars Gunther</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 18:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344567</guid>
		<description>While working for Opera, Ian Hickson made &lt;a href=&quot;http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=414942&amp;cid=22007196&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;reduced individual tests&lt;/a&gt; out of Acid2. If one looks at the bug reports from Acid3 (&lt;a href=&quot;https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=424973&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here is one from me&lt;/a&gt;) they become individual reduced tests as well.

When writing unit tests for back end code, I am sure glad there are ways to make a test harness so I can run multiple tests in a batch. What I am trying to say is do not be too afraid of automated tests. Acid3 serve a purpose. Now we need to raise awareness about the formal test suites as well. Anyone who wishes may help out adding info to my &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itpastorn/browsertests&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wikipedia article in the making&lt;/a&gt;. On that page I reference to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;formal W3C selectors test suite&lt;/a&gt;, BTW.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While working for Opera, Ian Hickson made <a href="http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=414942&amp;cid=22007196" rel="nofollow">reduced individual tests</a> out of Acid2. If one looks at the bug reports from Acid3 (<a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=424973" rel="nofollow">here is one from me</a>) they become individual reduced tests as well.</p>
<p>When writing unit tests for back end code, I am sure glad there are ways to make a test harness so I can run multiple tests in a batch. What I am trying to say is do not be too afraid of automated tests. Acid3 serve a purpose. Now we need to raise awareness about the formal test suites as well. Anyone who wishes may help out adding info to my <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Itpastorn/browsertests" rel="nofollow">Wikipedia article in the making</a>. On that page I reference to <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/" rel="nofollow">formal W3C selectors test suite</a>, BTW.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344521</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 15:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344521</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s almost the sort of thing I&#039;m looking for, &lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344429&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Faruk&lt;/a&gt;.

It bothers me a that a CSS test would be that dependent on JavaScript-- a user agent could potentially support one without the other (or be configured that way for a reason).  Furthermore, it&#039;s set up so that without JavaScript, I can&#039;t run through the tests manually, nor even see them to check for accuracy.  I&#039;m also forced to analyze the JS itself to see if it could have any effect on the individual results or the reporting of those results.  For example, does the way it puts things in sequence have any possibility whatsoever of spoiling one or more of the results?  And what if the JS uses some feature that breaks in one browser under unusual but reasonable conditions?

In effect, it isn&#039;t a CSS test suite; it&#039;s a CSS and DOM test suite, even though it claims to be otherwise.

This is why I think absolutely minimal dependency is a virtue.  If the CSS3.info selectors test were something I could go through manually, plus it offered the JS quick-summary function as an optional feature, I&#039;d be a lot happier with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s almost the sort of thing I&#8217;m looking for, <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344429" rel="nofollow">Faruk</a>.</p>
<p>It bothers me a that a CSS test would be that dependent on JavaScript&#8211; a user agent could potentially support one without the other (or be configured that way for a reason).  Furthermore, it&#8217;s set up so that without JavaScript, I can&#8217;t run through the tests manually, nor even see them to check for accuracy.  I&#8217;m also forced to analyze the JS itself to see if it could have any effect on the individual results or the reporting of those results.  For example, does the way it puts things in sequence have any possibility whatsoever of spoiling one or more of the results?  And what if the JS uses some feature that breaks in one browser under unusual but reasonable conditions?</p>
<p>In effect, it isn&#8217;t a CSS test suite; it&#8217;s a CSS and DOM test suite, even though it claims to be otherwise.</p>
<p>This is why I think absolutely minimal dependency is a virtue.  If the CSS3.info selectors test were something I could go through manually, plus it offered the JS quick-summary function as an optional feature, I&#8217;d be a lot happier with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Faruk Ates</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344429</link>
		<dc:creator>Faruk Ates</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 08:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344429</guid>
		<description>Eric, have you seen the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CSS3.info Selectors test&lt;/a&gt;?

578 individual (but put in sequence via JS so that it&#039;s not 578 pages) tests of CSS selectors, including the CSS3 ones. Sounds to me like that&#039;s exactly the kind of thing you&#039;re looking for, but I reckon you may not have seen it or you probably would&#039;ve linked to it, no?

(btw, don&#039;t know about the other browsers but Webkit passes it 100%)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, have you seen the <a href="http://www.css3.info/selectors-test/test.html" rel="nofollow">CSS3.info Selectors test</a>?</p>
<p>578 individual (but put in sequence via JS so that it&#8217;s not 578 pages) tests of CSS selectors, including the CSS3 ones. Sounds to me like that&#8217;s exactly the kind of thing you&#8217;re looking for, but I reckon you may not have seen it or you probably would&#8217;ve linked to it, no?</p>
<p>(btw, don&#8217;t know about the other browsers but Webkit passes it 100%)</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Buchanan</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344373</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Buchanan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 01:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344373</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Eric: You know, it&quot;s weird, but that seems really familiar, like I&quot;ve heard or read something like that before. Now if only I could remember... Oh yeah! It&quot;s basically what the IE team said about not passing Acid2 when the IE7 betas came out, for which they were promptly excoriated.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It&#039;s a good point. People always howl at the IE team but let the FF team get away with the exact same behaviour(s). Personally I&#039;ve noticed a lot of hypocritical actions from the Firefox fan squad. They&#039;re happy for a site to ignore other non-IE browsers so long as it works in FF; they&#039;re happy for FF to ignore an acid test when they screamed about IE7; etc.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
kimblim: I read it like this: WebKit and Opera shouldn&quot;t be focusing on completing the Acid3 test, but instead do what Mozilla are doing: making a great browser.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

My read on that is that Opera (not sure about WebKit) aren&#039;t focussed on Acid3 to the exclusion of making a great browser. They&#039;re actually doing a good enough job of their core business that they can &lt;em&gt;also&lt;/em&gt; spend time on Acid3. 

The Firefox project doesn&#039;t appear to have that luxury. It looks like they have to ignore the test to make sure they get FF3 out as soon as possible. The honest truth is that Firefox 2 is in a bad way, with memory leaks and so on - the new version is far more stable and it&#039;s important to get that out into the market.

Yes, it&#039;s the same result, I just don&#039;t think think Firefox project&#039;s approach is based on a laudable decision - just necessity. The community didn&#039;t cut IE any slack on those grounds so I see no reason FF should get a pass ;)

Frankly no browser team should really get beaten up over this sort of stuff so long as they&#039;re genuinely working on improvements.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Eric: You know, it&#8221;s weird, but that seems really familiar, like I&#8221;ve heard or read something like that before. Now if only I could remember&#8230; Oh yeah! It&#8221;s basically what the IE team said about not passing Acid2 when the IE7 betas came out, for which they were promptly excoriated.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s a good point. People always howl at the IE team but let the FF team get away with the exact same behaviour(s). Personally I&#8217;ve noticed a lot of hypocritical actions from the Firefox fan squad. They&#8217;re happy for a site to ignore other non-IE browsers so long as it works in FF; they&#8217;re happy for FF to ignore an acid test when they screamed about IE7; etc.</p>
<blockquote><p>
kimblim: I read it like this: WebKit and Opera shouldn&#8221;t be focusing on completing the Acid3 test, but instead do what Mozilla are doing: making a great browser.
</p></blockquote>
<p>My read on that is that Opera (not sure about WebKit) aren&#8217;t focussed on Acid3 to the exclusion of making a great browser. They&#8217;re actually doing a good enough job of their core business that they can <em>also</em> spend time on Acid3. </p>
<p>The Firefox project doesn&#8217;t appear to have that luxury. It looks like they have to ignore the test to make sure they get FF3 out as soon as possible. The honest truth is that Firefox 2 is in a bad way, with memory leaks and so on &#8211; the new version is far more stable and it&#8217;s important to get that out into the market.</p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s the same result, I just don&#8217;t think think Firefox project&#8217;s approach is based on a laudable decision &#8211; just necessity. The community didn&#8217;t cut IE any slack on those grounds so I see no reason FF should get a pass ;)</p>
<p>Frankly no browser team should really get beaten up over this sort of stuff so long as they&#8217;re genuinely working on improvements.</p>
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		<title>By: Implementeringsjuks for ACID3 godkjenning - bza.no</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344345</link>
		<dc:creator>Implementeringsjuks for ACID3 godkjenning - bza.no</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 21:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344345</guid>
		<description>[...] er egentlig 100/100-stempelet i ACID3-testen et bevis på implementering av standardene. Som Eric Meyer påpeker er for det første utvalget av egenskaper som testes i ACID3 begrenset i forhold til standardens [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] er egentlig 100/100-stempelet i ACID3-testen et bevis på implementering av standardene. Som Eric Meyer påpeker er for det første utvalget av egenskaper som testes i ACID3 begrenset i forhold til standardens [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344299</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 15:04:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344299</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344298&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anne&lt;/a&gt;: Yes and no, in that order.  Thanks for asking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344298" rel="nofollow">Anne</a>: Yes and no, in that order.  Thanks for asking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Anne van Kesteren</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344298</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne van Kesteren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Mar 2008 14:51:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comment-344298</guid>
		<description>Why do they not? Are you asserting that @font-face and DOM Level 2 Events for instance are not relevant?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why do they not? Are you asserting that @font-face and DOM Level 2 Events for instance are not relevant?</p>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: Acid Redux">Acid Redux</a></h3>
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<li class="date">Thu 27 Mar 2008</li>
<li class="time">2222</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/browsers/" title="View all posts in Browsers" rel="category tag">Browsers</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/03/27/acid-redux/#comments">35 responses</a></li>
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<p>
So the feeds I read have been buzzing the past few days with running commentary of the WebKit and Opera teams&#8217; race to be the first to hit 100/100 on <a href="http://acid3.acidtests.org/">Acid3</a>, and then after that the effort to get a pixel-perfect match with the reference image.  Last I saw, <a href="http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/2008/03/26/opera-and-the-acid3-test">Opera claimed to have gotten to 100 first</a> but <a href="http://webkit.org/blog/173/webkit-achieves-acid3-100100-in-public-build/">it looked like WebKit had gotten both with something publicly available</a>, but I haven&#8217;t verified any of this for myself.  Nor do I have any particular plans to do so.
</p>
<p>
Because as lovely as it is to see that you can, in fact, get one or more browser implementation teams to jump in a precisely defined sequence through a series of cunningly (one might say sadistically) placed hoops, half of which are on fire and the other half lined with razor wire, it doesn&#8217;t strike me as the best possible use of the teams&#8217; time and energy.
</p>
<p>
No, I don&#8217;t hate standards, though I may hate freedom (depends on who&#8217;s asking).  What I disagree with is the idea that if you cherry-pick enough obscure and difficult corners of a bunch of different specifications and mix them all together into a spicy meatball of difficulty, it constitutes a useful test of the specifications you cherry-picked.  Because the one does not automatically follow from the other.
</p>
<p>
For example, suppose I told you that WebKit had implemented just the bits of SMIL-related SVG needed to pass the test, and that in doing so they exposed a woefully incomplete SVG implementation, one that gets something like 2% pass rates on actual SMIL/SVG tests.  Laughable, right?  <a href="http://blog.codedread.com/archives/2008/03/26/webkit-nightly-not-smiling/">Yes, well</a>.
</p>
<p>
Of course, that&#8217;s in a nightly build and they might totally support SMIL by the time the corresponding final version is released and we&#8217;ll all look back on this and laugh the carefree laugh of children in springtime.  Maybe.  The real point here is that the Acid3 test isn&#8217;t a broad-spectrum standards-support test.  It&#8217;s a showpiece, and something of a Potemkin village at that.  Which is a shame, because what&#8217;s really needed right now is exhaustive test suites for specifications&#8211; XHTML, CSS, DOM, SVG, you name it.  We&#8217;ve been seeing more of these emerge recently, but they&#8217;re not enough.  I&#8217;d have been much more firmly in the cheering section had the effort that went into Acid3 had gone into, say, an obssessively thorough DOM test suite.
</p>
<p>
I&#8217;d had this post in mind for a while now, really ever since Acid3 was released.  Then the horse race started to develop, and I told myself I really needed to get around to writing that post&#8212;and I got overtaken.  Well, that&#8217;s being busy for you.  It&#8217;s just as well I waited, really, because much of what I was going to say got covered by <a href="http://shaver.off.net/">Mike Shaver</a> in his piece <a href="http://shaver.off.net/diary/2008/03/27/the-missed-opportunity-of-acid-3/">explaining why Firefox 3 isn&#8217;t going to hit 100% on Acid3</a>.  For example:
</p>

<blockquote cite="http://shaver.off.net/diary/2008/03/27/the-missed-opportunity-of-acid-3/">
<p>
Ian&#8217;s Acid3, unlike its predecessors, is not about establishing a baseline of useful web capabilities. It&#8217;s quite explicitly about making browser developers jump&#8230; the Acid tests shouldn&#8217;t be fair to browsers, they should be fair to the <em>web</em>; they should be based on how good the web will be as a platform if all browsers conform, not about how far any given browser has to stretch to get there.
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
That&#8217;s no doubt more concisely and clearly stated than I would have managed, so it&#8217;s all for the best that he got to say it first.
</p>
<p>
By the by, I was quite intrigued by this part of Mike&#8217;s post:
</p>

<blockquote cite="http://shaver.off.net/diary/2008/03/27/the-missed-opportunity-of-acid-3/">
<p>
You might ask why Mozilla&#8217;s not racking up daily gains, especially if you&#8217;re following the relevant bugs and seeing that people have produced patches for some issues that are covered by Acid3.
</p>
<p>
The most obvious reason is Firefox 3. We&#8217;re in the end-game of building what I really do believe is the best browser the web has ever known, and we expect to be putting it in the hands of more than 170 million users in a pretty short period of time. We&#8217;re still taking fixes for important issues, but virtually none of the issues on <a href="http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pNgBCwWdyRTT2JeiZn4B2Yw">the Acid3 list</a> are important enough for us to take at this stage. We don&#8217;t want to be rushing fixes in, or rushing out a release, only to find that we&#8217;ve broken important sites or regressed previous standards support, or worse introduced a security problem. Every API that&#8217;s exposed to content needs to be tested for compliance and security and reliability&#8230; We think these remaining late-stage patches are worth the test burden, often because they help make the web platform much more powerful, and reflect real-web compatibility and capability issues. Acid3&#8217;s contents, sadly, are not as often of that nature.
</p>
</blockquote>

<p>
You know, it&#8217;s weird, but that seems really familiar, like I&#8217;ve heard or read something like that before.  Now if only I could remember&#8230;  Oh yeah!  It&#8217;s basically <a href="http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/07/29/445242.aspx">what the IE team said</a> about not passing <a href="http://acid2.acidtests.org/#top">Acid2</a> when the IE7 betas came out, for which they were promptly excoriated.
</p>
<p>
Huh.
</p>
<p>
Well, never mind that now.  Of course it was a <em>totally</em> different set of circumstances and core motivations, and I&#8217;m sure there&#8217;s absolutely no parallel to be drawn between the two situations.  At <em>all</em>.
</p>
<p>
Returning to the main point here:  I&#8217;m a little bit sad, to tell the truth.  The <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/current/test5526c.htm">original acid test</a> was a prefect example of what I think makes for a good stress test.  Recall that the test&#8217;s original name, before it got shorthanded, was the &#8220;Box Model Acid Test&#8221;.  It was a test of CSS box model handling, including floats.  That&#8217;s all it was designed to do.  It did that fairly well for its time, considering it was part of <a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/">a CSS1 test suite</a>.  It didn&#8217;t try to combine box model testing with tests for PNG support, HTML parse error recovery, and DOM scripting.
</p>
<p>
To me, the ideal CSS test suite is one that has a bunch of basic property/value tests, like the ones I&#8217;ve been responsible for creating (<a href="http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS1/">1</a>, <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/css2/">2</a>), along with a bunch of acid tests for specific areas or concepts in that specification.  So an acidified CSS test suite would have individual acid tests for the box model, positioning, fonts, selectors, table layout, and so on.  It would <strong>not</strong> involve scripting or markup parsing (beyond what&#8217;s needed to handle selectors).  It would <strong>not</strong> use animated SVG icons.  Hell, it probably wouldn&#8217;t even use PNGs, except possibly alphaed PNGs when testing opacity and RGBA colors.  And maybe not even then.
</p>
<p>
So in a DOM test suite, you&#8217;d have one test page for each method or attribute, and then build some acid tests out of related bits (say, on an entire interface or set of closely related interfaces).  And maybe, at the end, you&#8217;d build an overarching acid test that rolled verything in the DOM spec into one fiendishly difficult test.  But it would be <em>just about the DOM</em> and whatever absolute minimum of other stuff you needed, like text rendering and maybe GIF support.  (Similarly, the CSS tests had to assume some basic HTML and CSS selector support, or else everything else fell down.)
</p>
<p>
And then, after all those test suites have been built up and a series of acid tests woven into them, with each one culminating in its own spec-spanning acid test, you might think about taking those end-point acid tests and slamming them all together into one super-ultra-hyper-mega acid test, something that even the xenomorphs from the <cite>Alien</cite> series would look at and say, &#8220;<em>That&#8217;s</em> gonna sting&#8221;.  That would be awesome.  But that&#8217;s not what we have.
</p>
<p>
I fully acknowledge that a whole lot of very clever thinking went into the construction of Acid3 (as was true of Acid2), and that a lot of very smart people have worked very hard to pass it.  Congratulations all around, really.  I just can&#8217;t help feeling like some broader and more important point has been missed.  To me, it&#8217;s kind of like meeting the general challenge of finding an economical way to loft broadband transceivers to an altitude of 25,000 feet (in order to get full coverage of large metropolitan areas while avoiding the jetstream) by daring a bunch of teams to plant a transceiver near the summit of Mount Everest&#8212;and then getting them to do it.  Progress toward the summit can be demonstrated and kudos bestowed afterward, but there&#8217;s a wider picture that seems to have been overlooked in the process.
</p>
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