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	<title>Comments on: Time and Motion</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Thomas Alexander</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-403863</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Alexander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 01:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-403863</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What if TIME WAS NOT RELATIVE? 
We cannot calculate the way in which time passes for the observer who is moving. We can calculate only the way in which the passage of time is perceived (seen) by him.

Light doesn&quot;t travel at a constant speed in relation to time, spectrum waves have different speeds over long distances. Red waves travel at a different speed to violet. Pure white light has to be split into the 6 colors or the non visual spectrum, radio (yellow), microwave (orange), infrared, ultra violet, x ray (blue) and Gamma (green)

I Think 0 time is coming very soon, and we will start to go into reverse. Maybe the Maya were correct.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What if TIME WAS NOT RELATIVE?<br />
We cannot calculate the way in which time passes for the observer who is moving. We can calculate only the way in which the passage of time is perceived (seen) by him.</p>
<p>Light doesn&#8221;t travel at a constant speed in relation to time, spectrum waves have different speeds over long distances. Red waves travel at a different speed to violet. Pure white light has to be split into the 6 colors or the non visual spectrum, radio (yellow), microwave (orange), infrared, ultra violet, x ray (blue) and Gamma (green)</p>
<p>I Think 0 time is coming very soon, and we will start to go into reverse. Maybe the Maya were correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Kees Huyser</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-367095</link>
		<dc:creator>Kees Huyser</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-367095</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In an &lt;a href=&quot;http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn13792-cosmic-time-warp-revealed-in-slowmotion-supernovae.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;article&lt;/a&gt; (28 april 2008) in New Scientist they write:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Once upon a time, time was different. Supernova explosions in the early universe appear to age more slowly than today&#039;s supernovae, as if time itself was running slower back then, according to a recent series of astronomical observations. This cosmic time warp is exactly what should be produced by the expansion of the universe, confirming conventional big bang theory.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The article seems to answer your question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In an <a href="http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn13792-cosmic-time-warp-revealed-in-slowmotion-supernovae.html" rel="nofollow">article</a> (28 april 2008) in New Scientist they write:</p>
<blockquote><p>Once upon a time, time was different. Supernova explosions in the early universe appear to age more slowly than today&#8217;s supernovae, as if time itself was running slower back then, according to a recent series of astronomical observations. This cosmic time warp is exactly what should be produced by the expansion of the universe, confirming conventional big bang theory.</p></blockquote>
<p>The article seems to answer your question.</p>
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		<title>By: Francois Reeves</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-366497</link>
		<dc:creator>Francois Reeves</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Apr 2008 07:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-366497</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What bothers me with redshift lies in the very definition of light. It is composed of particles with a wave like behaviour. Wouldn&#039;t anything traveling distances so great lose energy to surrounding gravitational fields, interfering particle collisions, black holes, white dwarfs and what have you. Funny how Physics can make abstraction of incremental factors to fit a not so perfect model. We think of gravity in terms of Newton and classical mechanics here locally, we apply Maxwell and Einstein to space. What if there were still missing information? What&#039;s with the 3K background? Don&#039;t blackholes contradict E=MC2... Some interesting alternate readings on cosmology. http://redshift.vif.com/Apeiron_Home.htm]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What bothers me with redshift lies in the very definition of light. It is composed of particles with a wave like behaviour. Wouldn&#8217;t anything traveling distances so great lose energy to surrounding gravitational fields, interfering particle collisions, black holes, white dwarfs and what have you. Funny how Physics can make abstraction of incremental factors to fit a not so perfect model. We think of gravity in terms of Newton and classical mechanics here locally, we apply Maxwell and Einstein to space. What if there were still missing information? What&#8217;s with the 3K background? Don&#8217;t blackholes contradict E=MC2&#8230; Some interesting alternate readings on cosmology. <a href="http://redshift.vif.com/Apeiron_Home.htm" rel="nofollow">http://redshift.vif.com/Apeiron_Home.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: George Harrison</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-360129</link>
		<dc:creator>George Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 23:20:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-360129</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is a good explanation of what is happening at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=misconceptions-about-the-2005-03&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Scientific American Online &lt;/a&gt;. 

Includes why Woody Allen&#039;s mother was right. And why we can see light from galaxies that are moving faster than the speed of light.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a good explanation of what is happening at <a href="http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=misconceptions-about-the-2005-03" rel="nofollow">Scientific American Online </a>. </p>
<p>Includes why Woody Allen&#8217;s mother was right. And why we can see light from galaxies that are moving faster than the speed of light.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel D Canfield</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-359045</link>
		<dc:creator>Joel D Canfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Apr 2008 14:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-359045</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric, if I understand your question correctly, you&#039;re asking &lt;em&gt;if we&#039;re seeing, not the current speed of distant objects, but their speed aeons ago, how do we know that their current speed is greater than closer objects?&lt;/em&gt;, well, from my reading, the &#039;greater speed farther away&#039; is simply the most common alternative in our current cosmological understanding (which does not, as far as I know, include elephants standing on giant turtles)

Hawkings makes it clear that the expansion is indeed slowing. Seems to make it more logical that objects farther away from us are receding at the same speed as objects closer to us, but we haven&#039;t measured that yet &#039;cause we don&#039;t have anything fast enough to measure it with.

Or, as Paul suggests, the answer may just be 42.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, if I understand your question correctly, you&#8217;re asking <em>if we&#8217;re seeing, not the current speed of distant objects, but their speed aeons ago, how do we know that their current speed is greater than closer objects?</em>, well, from my reading, the &#8216;greater speed farther away&#8217; is simply the most common alternative in our current cosmological understanding (which does not, as far as I know, include elephants standing on giant turtles)</p>
<p>Hawkings makes it clear that the expansion is indeed slowing. Seems to make it more logical that objects farther away from us are receding at the same speed as objects closer to us, but we haven&#8217;t measured that yet &#8217;cause we don&#8217;t have anything fast enough to measure it with.</p>
<p>Or, as Paul suggests, the answer may just be 42.</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Gresley</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354716</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Gresley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 07:51:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Maniquí

That is not quite true in Intergalactic Explorer 6 since &lt;code&gt;overflow:hidden&lt;/code&gt; does not trigger &lt;code&gt;hasLayout&lt;/code&gt;. This only happens in Intergalactic Explorer 7 which is good since the Universal selector hack &lt;code&gt;* html&lt;/code&gt;.doesn&#039;t work unless quirks is triggered. We need to add a adjacent sibling selector to the equation. Maybe Intergalactic Explorer 8 can really solve this equation since it delves deep into these Atoms and analyzes the &lt;strike&gt;quirks&lt;/strike&gt; ops &lt;a href=&quot;http://css-class.com/test/bugs/ie/ie-hacks.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quarks&lt;/a&gt; behavior. We can no longer solve the equation by &lt;code&gt;hasLayout&lt;/code&gt; since is no longer present.

According to the laws of &lt;code&gt;position:relativity&lt;/code&gt; or is that &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;special relativity&lt;/a&gt; which give us the equation &lt;code&gt;E = mc2&lt;/code&gt;. Appearing on this page is this.

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity&quot;&gt;
Conservation of energy implies that in any reaction a decrease of the sum of the masses of particles must be accompanied by an increase in kinetic energies of the particles after the reaction.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This means that for an observer who is &lt;code&gt;position:fixed&lt;/code&gt; any object that reaches the speed of light will have zero mass but infinite energy. In theory when the Big Bang happened mass was expelled form a singular point of no mass and infinite energy in all directions. Once matter begin to slow the energy would decrease but the mass will increase. This in theory would indicate that the expansion of the universe is decreasing or decelerating and must reach a point of time when expansion stops and contraction begins.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Maniquí</p>
<p>That is not quite true in Intergalactic Explorer 6 since <code>overflow:hidden</code> does not trigger <code>hasLayout</code>. This only happens in Intergalactic Explorer 7 which is good since the Universal selector hack <code>* html</code>.doesn&#8217;t work unless quirks is triggered. We need to add a adjacent sibling selector to the equation. Maybe Intergalactic Explorer 8 can really solve this equation since it delves deep into these Atoms and analyzes the <strike>quirks</strike> ops <a href="http://css-class.com/test/bugs/ie/ie-hacks.htm" rel="nofollow">quarks</a> behavior. We can no longer solve the equation by <code>hasLayout</code> since is no longer present.</p>
<p>According to the laws of <code>position:relativity</code> or is that <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity" rel="nofollow">special relativity</a> which give us the equation <code>E = mc2</code>. Appearing on this page is this.</p>
<blockquote cite="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity"><p>
Conservation of energy implies that in any reaction a decrease of the sum of the masses of particles must be accompanied by an increase in kinetic energies of the particles after the reaction.</p></blockquote>
<p>This means that for an observer who is <code>position:fixed</code> any object that reaches the speed of light will have zero mass but infinite energy. In theory when the Big Bang happened mass was expelled form a singular point of no mass and infinite energy in all directions. Once matter begin to slow the energy would decrease but the mass will increase. This in theory would indicate that the expansion of the universe is decreasing or decelerating and must reach a point of time when expansion stops and contraction begins.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Massalsky</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354392</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Massalsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354392</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would email this specific question to Dr. Pamela Gay at Astronomy Cast, assuming the podcast referenced does not explain it. That podcast is amazing, although, I do have to re-listen to some to get it to soak in.

Unless I missed something, light over time can theoretically be impacted by black holes it passes by, which may distort the wavelength. One of the things I wonder when thinking about light moving toward us is what has it passed that may have impacted the perceived time, the actual wavelength, and the color shift accordingly. Can a black hole bend light to another spectrum?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would email this specific question to Dr. Pamela Gay at Astronomy Cast, assuming the podcast referenced does not explain it. That podcast is amazing, although, I do have to re-listen to some to get it to soak in.</p>
<p>Unless I missed something, light over time can theoretically be impacted by black holes it passes by, which may distort the wavelength. One of the things I wonder when thinking about light moving toward us is what has it passed that may have impacted the perceived time, the actual wavelength, and the color shift accordingly. Can a black hole bend light to another spectrum?</p>
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		<title>By: Walker</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354082</link>
		<dc:creator>Walker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Referencing what Chris (comment #6) wrote, we are really all in the dark so to speak. The light reaching us now is old, and increasingly out of date the further we look out. Unless we (science) find a way to observe the universe by something faster than light (instantaneous, really) we will never be able to form a complete and current picture of the cosmos.  

I think your observation is very interesting and not one I had really thought of. I had posted not too long ago a topic regarding red shift which perhaps you may find interesting:

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=209961]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Referencing what Chris (comment #6) wrote, we are really all in the dark so to speak. The light reaching us now is old, and increasingly out of date the further we look out. Unless we (science) find a way to observe the universe by something faster than light (instantaneous, really) we will never be able to form a complete and current picture of the cosmos.  </p>
<p>I think your observation is very interesting and not one I had really thought of. I had posted not too long ago a topic regarding red shift which perhaps you may find interesting:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=209961" rel="nofollow">http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=209961</a></p>
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		<title>By: Maniquí</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354061</link>
		<dc:creator>Maniquí</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-354061</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I&#039;ve seen this problem before on Intergalactic Explorer 6. A workaround: you have to set &lt;code&gt;overflow:hidden&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;width:100%&lt;/code&gt; (&lt;code&gt;height&lt;/code&gt; will work too)  to every galaxy with floating elements inside its gravitational field. This will auto-clear the galaxy.

The cleanest way to apply this hack is by using the &lt;em&gt;Universal&lt;/em&gt; selector hack (&lt;code&gt;* html&lt;/code&gt;). 

The question is... the universe... hasLayout?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;ve seen this problem before on Intergalactic Explorer 6. A workaround: you have to set <code>overflow:hidden</code> and <code>width:100%</code> (<code>height</code> will work too)  to every galaxy with floating elements inside its gravitational field. This will auto-clear the galaxy.</p>
<p>The cleanest way to apply this hack is by using the <em>Universal</em> selector hack (<code>* html</code>). </p>
<p>The question is&#8230; the universe&#8230; hasLayout?</p>
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		<title>By: Alan Gresley</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353995</link>
		<dc:creator>Alan Gresley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353995</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a dilemma for you Eric.

For redshift to occur and object must be moving faster than the speed of light. If the universe is now in a contracting phase those galaxies that seem very far away are really just around the corner since theoretically the galaxies are moving towards us faster than the light that they emit.

Hope to speak to you soon before the bang!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a dilemma for you Eric.</p>
<p>For redshift to occur and object must be moving faster than the speed of light. If the universe is now in a contracting phase those galaxies that seem very far away are really just around the corner since theoretically the galaxies are moving towards us faster than the light that they emit.</p>
<p>Hope to speak to you soon before the bang!</p>
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		<title>By: UniDyne</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353207</link>
		<dc:creator>UniDyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:22:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353207</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It actually has more to do with the amount of time the light took to get here. The farther away a galaxy is, the longer (time) the light has to travel, and thus the more time it is exposed to the expanding space between. In other words, it is the fact that the light is traveling through expanding space that it shifts red. The more distance to travel, the more space expansion the light is exposed to, and thus the redder it gets.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It actually has more to do with the amount of time the light took to get here. The farther away a galaxy is, the longer (time) the light has to travel, and thus the more time it is exposed to the expanding space between. In other words, it is the fact that the light is traveling through expanding space that it shifts red. The more distance to travel, the more space expansion the light is exposed to, and thus the redder it gets.</p>
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		<title>By: Horus Kol</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353185</link>
		<dc:creator>Horus Kol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353185</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is not centre to the expansion - if you moved to the edge if the visible universe (about 12-15 billion light years away from where we are right now) you would see the exact same thing - space all round for 12-15 billion light years, and the same expansion and cosmological redshift...

This is the problem when using the dots on the expanding balloon analogy for cosmological expansion - the surface of a balloon is a 2-dimensional space expanding within a 3-dimensional context... the universe is a 3-dimensional space expanding within an even higher context (not sure how much higher, though).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is not centre to the expansion &#8211; if you moved to the edge if the visible universe (about 12-15 billion light years away from where we are right now) you would see the exact same thing &#8211; space all round for 12-15 billion light years, and the same expansion and cosmological redshift&#8230;</p>
<p>This is the problem when using the dots on the expanding balloon analogy for cosmological expansion &#8211; the surface of a balloon is a 2-dimensional space expanding within a 3-dimensional context&#8230; the universe is a 3-dimensional space expanding within an even higher context (not sure how much higher, though).</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Cherim</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353074</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Cherim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 20:59:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-353074</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Curious, but if all galaxies are expending, wouldn&#039;t they effectively be more closer together (from edge to edge)? Or are galaxies moving away at the same rate they are expanding? If so, from what core object are they moving away from?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curious, but if all galaxies are expending, wouldn&#8217;t they effectively be more closer together (from edge to edge)? Or are galaxies moving away at the same rate they are expanding? If so, from what core object are they moving away from?</p>
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		<title>By: Aristotle Pagaltzis</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-351100</link>
		<dc:creator>Aristotle Pagaltzis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 02:09:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-351100</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are mixing up some things. Galaxies are not &lt;em&gt;in fact&lt;/em&gt; receding from us. They are comparatively stationary, but as space expands, they become more distant from us. It is the expansion of space that whisks them away – they&quot;re not actually moving like that.

So the cosmological red shift is in fact due to the stretching of space.

Now, that does not mean that objects in expand. As space expands, there is more of it – more room in which objects of the same size can exist. This expansion is driven by something that&quot;s much weaker than gravity (whatever it is), which in turn is unfathomably much weaker than the weak interaction, in turn a lot weaker than electromagnetism, which finally is a good deal weaker than the strong force. (Gravity is considered &lt;em&gt;10^40 times&lt;/em&gt; weaker than the strong force; electromagnetism is 1/137th the strength of the strong force. In actual fact, this scale is a construct of fiction, as the forces cannot &lt;em&gt;really&lt;/em&gt; be compared like that. But it&quot;s a useful fiction nonetheless.) For something to expand as a consequence of the expansion of space, it would have to be unbound even gravitationally. Since the electromagnetic force (which is what&quot;s responsible for nearly all structure we see at scales below the size of a planet) is unimaginably much stronger than whatever it is that drives the expansion of space, humans (and houses and tables and trees and rocks and blowfishes) do not expand just because space is expanding. The expansive force may be pulling things apart, but gravity, electromagnetism and the strong force pull them back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are mixing up some things. Galaxies are not <em>in fact</em> receding from us. They are comparatively stationary, but as space expands, they become more distant from us. It is the expansion of space that whisks them away – they&#8221;re not actually moving like that.</p>
<p>So the cosmological red shift is in fact due to the stretching of space.</p>
<p>Now, that does not mean that objects in expand. As space expands, there is more of it – more room in which objects of the same size can exist. This expansion is driven by something that&#8221;s much weaker than gravity (whatever it is), which in turn is unfathomably much weaker than the weak interaction, in turn a lot weaker than electromagnetism, which finally is a good deal weaker than the strong force. (Gravity is considered <em>10^40 times</em> weaker than the strong force; electromagnetism is 1/137th the strength of the strong force. In actual fact, this scale is a construct of fiction, as the forces cannot <em>really</em> be compared like that. But it&#8221;s a useful fiction nonetheless.) For something to expand as a consequence of the expansion of space, it would have to be unbound even gravitationally. Since the electromagnetic force (which is what&#8221;s responsible for nearly all structure we see at scales below the size of a planet) is unimaginably much stronger than whatever it is that drives the expansion of space, humans (and houses and tables and trees and rocks and blowfishes) do not expand just because space is expanding. The expansive force may be pulling things apart, but gravity, electromagnetism and the strong force pull them back.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Passin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-350650</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Passin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 16:45:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2008/04/07/time-and-motion/#comment-350650</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric, there are several factors involved here, which you haven&#039;t picked up in your post.  The redshift is only being used as a measure of distance because of a lot of painstaking work that went into establishing the distances in the first place.  Hubble is credited with some of the early work on this.  There are some five or six different methods for establishing distances to celestial objects, and the scales for which they work best overlap.  The overlap gives astronomers a way to establish a chain of measurement indicators that reach out to the very distant galaxies.

After the distance have been established, one can inquire into possible relationships between distance and redshift.  So it&#039;s distance first, redshift second.  Of course, if one has good confidence in the relationship, one can then use redshift as a proxy for distance, if one can be pretty sure there are no other causes for a redshift.

Next, redshift is determined by the shift of specific spectral lines, not just by a general reddening of the light.  The only way those lines could change from early times til now is for something in the physics to change - most likely, some of the fundamental constants of nature.  Whether or not such constants can change has been a periodic subject for debate and theorizing , but there isn&#039;t currently any evidence or theory that has been widely accepted.

A redshift could also be observed, if the light from a distant object were absorbed and then re-emitted by an intervening body (i.e., a mass of gas).  This could modify the redshift if the state of motion of the absorber were different from that of the emitter.  So astronomers tend to inspect their spectra with care to try to rule confounding effects like this (e.g., intervening absorbers generally add other characteristic changes to spectra, which can often be detected).

This kind of work is amazingly difficult and painstaking, especially to establish the basic phenomena in the first place.  But it does seem to be on fairly firm ground in general.  I wouldn&#039;t hang my hat on any exact estimates on the degree of expansion or contraction just yet, though.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, there are several factors involved here, which you haven&#8217;t picked up in your post.  The redshift is only being used as a measure of distance because of a lot of painstaking work that went into establishing the distances in the first place.  Hubble is credited with some of the early work on this.  There are some five or six different methods for establishing distances to celestial objects, and the scales for which they work best overlap.  The overlap gives astronomers a way to establish a chain of measurement indicators that reach out to the very distant galaxies.</p>
<p>After the distance have been established, one can inquire into possible relationships between distance and redshift.  So it&#8217;s distance first, redshift second.  Of course, if one has good confidence in the relationship, one can then use redshift as a proxy for distance, if one can be pretty sure there are no other causes for a redshift.</p>
<p>Next, redshift is determined by the shift of specific spectral lines, not just by a general reddening of the light.  The only way those lines could change from early times til now is for something in the physics to change &#8211; most likely, some of the fundamental constants of nature.  Whether or not such constants can change has been a periodic subject for debate and theorizing , but there isn&#8217;t currently any evidence or theory that has been widely accepted.</p>
<p>A redshift could also be observed, if the light from a distant object were absorbed and then re-emitted by an intervening body (i.e., a mass of gas).  This could modify the redshift if the state of motion of the absorber were different from that of the emitter.  So astronomers tend to inspect their spectra with care to try to rule confounding effects like this (e.g., intervening absorbers generally add other characteristic changes to spectra, which can often be detected).</p>
<p>This kind of work is amazingly difficult and painstaking, especially to establish the basic phenomena in the first place.  But it does seem to be on fairly firm ground in general.  I wouldn&#8217;t hang my hat on any exact estimates on the degree of expansion or contraction just yet, though.</p>
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