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	<title>Comments on: CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts</title>
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		<title>By: Some of the Top Minds in the World of CSS and why you should be following their Work - Inspect Element</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-486945</link>
		<dc:creator>Some of the Top Minds in the World of CSS and why you should be following their Work - Inspect Element</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Dec 2009 10:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-486945</guid>
		<description>[...] CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts [...]</p>
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		<title>By: web page designer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-474704</link>
		<dc:creator>web page designer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Aug 2009 20:55:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-474704</guid>
		<description>I like all these added features coming to CSS3, however I wonder how many browser conflict they&#039;ll create with so many &#039;extras&#039;.   Sometimes it is good to keep it simple when the browser gods seem to hate each other so much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like all these added features coming to CSS3, however I wonder how many browser conflict they&#8217;ll create with so many &#8216;extras&#8217;.   Sometimes it is good to keep it simple when the browser gods seem to hate each other so much.</p>
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		<title>By: discount vouchers</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-473892</link>
		<dc:creator>discount vouchers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:17:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-473892</guid>
		<description>Thanks, regarding inline vs block level content, I&quot;d be happy if it worked the same way as it currently does with border etc just to stay consistent.

Regards,
Sharon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, regarding inline vs block level content, I&#8221;d be happy if it worked the same way as it currently does with border etc just to stay consistent.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Sharon</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: CSS Flavor &#8211; Gallery of Best CSS Design Websites&#187; Blog Archive &#187; CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-472012</link>
		<dc:creator>CSS Flavor &#8211; Gallery of Best CSS Design Websites&#187; Blog Archive &#187; CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-472012</guid>
		<description>[...] My few thoughts on the “Graphical Effects” part of the feedback document. A lot of what was mentioned by the community is already in the pipeline, so there&quot;s not a lot to say about those except “hurry &quot;em up, willya?”.  Read more.. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] My few thoughts on the “Graphical Effects” part of the feedback document. A lot of what was mentioned by the community is already in the pipeline, so there&#8221;s not a lot to say about those except “hurry &#8220;em up, willya?”.  Read more.. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sam</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-468212</link>
		<dc:creator>Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:56:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-468212</guid>
		<description>I think jsutcliffe comment was one of the best ways in which a gradient tool could working within CSS3 that I have heard. Nice concept!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think jsutcliffe comment was one of the best ways in which a gradient tool could working within CSS3 that I have heard. Nice concept!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rak Design</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-465381</link>
		<dc:creator>Rak Design</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:05:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-465381</guid>
		<description>I really like jsutcliffe  concept, I feel that would be a great way to include gradients with CSS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I really like jsutcliffe  concept, I feel that would be a great way to include gradients with CSS</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Micheil Smith</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-447007</link>
		<dc:creator>Micheil Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Mar 2009 11:31:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-447007</guid>
		<description>Personally, I think the biggest feature in graphical / background related attributes would be / is multiple background images. It means no more markup soup to get rounded corners!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think the biggest feature in graphical / background related attributes would be / is multiple background images. It means no more markup soup to get rounded corners!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Trendy Pixels</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-446214</link>
		<dc:creator>Trendy Pixels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 04:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-446214</guid>
		<description>I love the gradient and rounded corner option.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the gradient and rounded corner option.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-446011</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-446011</guid>
		<description>@Mike

SVG is handling a slightly different situation. An SVG image scales, but doesn&#039;t change its vertical/horizontal proportions. Web pages do.

I&#039;m assuming the call for gradients is to allow fluid layout, otherwise a pre-made gradient image would suffice, and the CSS support would not be needed. So there are probably issues like a minimum or maximum dimension at which the gradient should stop scaling. 

And if anyone is really generating exactly the same image every time time it&#039;s used - please rethink.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Mike</p>
<p>SVG is handling a slightly different situation. An SVG image scales, but doesn&#8217;t change its vertical/horizontal proportions. Web pages do.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m assuming the call for gradients is to allow fluid layout, otherwise a pre-made gradient image would suffice, and the CSS support would not be needed. So there are probably issues like a minimum or maximum dimension at which the gradient should stop scaling. </p>
<p>And if anyone is really generating exactly the same image every time time it&#8217;s used &#8211; please rethink.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sophie</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-445748</link>
		<dc:creator>Sophie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 20:07:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-445748</guid>
		<description>Was there any suggestion to allow splitting background-position into background-position-x and background-position-y ? 
This would allow to redefine one without the other, reducing the number of rules needed to manage rollovers, etc, using sprite images.
I would have thought this would be in css3 but I can&quot;t find it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Was there any suggestion to allow splitting background-position into background-position-x and background-position-y ?<br />
This would allow to redefine one without the other, reducing the number of rules needed to manage rollovers, etc, using sprite images.<br />
I would have thought this would be in css3 but I can&#8221;t find it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-445700</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:32:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-445700</guid>
		<description>Surely we don&#039;t need to think too hard about gradients: they work okay in SVG amongst other things, so it seems a little silly to even consider doing them differently, without having a really good reason.
For those browsers that can handle SVG already, this has the extra benefit of potentially giving them a quicker implementation path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Surely we don&#8217;t need to think too hard about gradients: they work okay in SVG amongst other things, so it seems a little silly to even consider doing them differently, without having a really good reason.<br />
For those browsers that can handle SVG already, this has the extra benefit of potentially giving them a quicker implementation path.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Max Design - standards based web design, development and training &#187; Some links for light reading (3/3/09)</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-445689</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Design - standards based web design, development and training &#187; Some links for light reading (3/3/09)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Mar 2009 09:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-445689</guid>
		<description>[...] CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert O\'Callahan</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-445307</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert O\'Callahan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Feb 2009 02:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-445307</guid>
		<description>Firefox 3.1 will support CSS transforms as well (based on Webkit&#039;s proposal).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Firefox 3.1 will support CSS transforms as well (based on Webkit&#8217;s proposal).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abu</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-445279</link>
		<dc:creator>abu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:34:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-445279</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Unidirectional background repeats&lt;/em&gt;

Oh please please yes =)

I don&#039;t know how many times I&#039;ve added structurally unnecessary wrapper divs to my contents just because I needed a vertical bagkground patten to start with a vertical offset from the bounding box of the container element.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Unidirectional background repeats</em></p>
<p>Oh please please yes =)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know how many times I&#8217;ve added structurally unnecessary wrapper divs to my contents just because I needed a vertical bagkground patten to start with a vertical offset from the bounding box of the container element.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Hester</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comment-445241</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Hester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Feb 2009 12:52:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=1073#comment-445241</guid>
		<description>Ironic how you could do some of these things waaaay back in IE5. Stuff like photo filters, rotation, zoom and even grayscale! However, now I see you can do &lt;a href=&quot;http://tekkie.flashbit.net/css/css3-transforms-in-webkit&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;CSS3 transforms in WebKit&lt;/a&gt; which is promising.

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://tekkie.flashbit.net/css/css3-transforms-in-webkit&quot;&gt;As of now you can scale, rotate, skew and translate boxes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ironic how you could do some of these things waaaay back in IE5. Stuff like photo filters, rotation, zoom and even grayscale! However, now I see you can do <a href="http://tekkie.flashbit.net/css/css3-transforms-in-webkit" rel="nofollow">CSS3 transforms in WebKit</a> which is promising.</p>
<blockquote cite="http://tekkie.flashbit.net/css/css3-transforms-in-webkit"><p>As of now you can scale, rotate, skew and translate boxes.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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<h3><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link: CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts">CSS3 Feedback: Graphical Thoughts</a></h3>
<ul class="meta">
<li class="date">Tue 24 Feb 2009</li>
<li class="time">0935</li>
<li class="cat"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/css/" title="View all posts in CSS" rel="category tag">CSS</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/commentary/" title="View all posts in Commentary" rel="category tag">Commentary</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/standards/" title="View all posts in Standards" rel="category tag">Standards</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/w3c/" title="View all posts in W3C" rel="category tag">W3C</a><br> <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/category/tech/web/" title="View all posts in Web" rel="category tag">Web</a></li>
<li class="cmt"><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/24/css3-feedback-graphical-thoughts/#comments">27 responses</a></li>
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<div class="text">
<p class="aside">(This is part of the <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/11/feedback-on-wasp-community-css3-feedback-2008/">Feedback on &#8216;WaSP Community CSS3 Feedback 2008&#8242;</a> series.)</p>

<p>
My few thoughts on the &#8220;<a href="http://fantasai.inkedblade.net/style/discuss/wasp-feedback-2008#graphical">Graphical Effects</a>&#8221; part of the feedback document.  A lot of what was mentioned by the community is already in the pipeline, so there&#8217;s not a lot to say about those except &#8220;hurry &#8216;em up, willya?&#8221;.
</p>

<p>
<strong>Gradients</strong> &#8212; like rounded corners, no surprise these came up.  (All we need is to define <code>wet-floor-reflect</code> and we&#8217;ll complete the Web 2.0 design tricks hat trick.)  I&#8217;d like to see them myself, and I don&#8217;t think defining them is quite as hard as the commentary implies:
</p>
<p>
<blockquote><p>Imagine, for example, applying a gradient to the text of a &lt;span&gt; broken across two lines. Do you apply the gradient to each part individually? Glue them together as if they were all on one line first? Draw a rectangle around both parts and apply the gradient to that? (<a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#the-background-break">CSS3 Backgrounds and Borders</a> has a control for this.)</p></blockquote>

</p><p>
I&#8217;d say the answer is right there, in the form of <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-background/#the-background-break"><code>background-break</code></a>, but let&#8217;s assume for a moment that said property never existed and we still had to deal with this problem.  I can think of two solutions:
</p>

<ol>
<li>Only allow gradients to be applied to non-inline boxes.  This would not be my preference, but it could be so defined.  There&#8217;s already precedence with CSS for that sort of limitation:  <code>width</code>, <code>height</code>, <code>text-align</code>, and other properties are restricted to non-inline boxes.</li>
<li>Treat gradients the way backgrounds and borders are already treated on inline boxes.  I&#8217;d be much more in favor of this.  In other words, lay out the inline box as though it is all on one line and then break it in pieces as needed to fit into the actual text flow.  (This is the behavior of <code>continuous</code>, the default value of <code>background-break</code>.)</li>
</ol>

<p>
But since <code>background-break</code> exists, you just treat gradients as you would any other background in accordance with <code>background-break</code>&#8217;s definitions.
</p>
<p>
The somewhat trickier problem is how to define the value syntax for <code>background-gradient</code> so that&#8217;s both powerful and extensible without being unusable.  I think that&#8217;s solvable, but not easily, and probably not in a way that will satisfy everyone.
</p>
<p>
(Though this would be a fabulous place for the cardinal-point values from pre-CSS1 days, which you can still find in the specification if you look hard enough, to make a roaring comeback, wouldn&#8217;t it?)
</p>
<p>
<strong>Unidirectional background repeats</strong> &#8212; I say yes.  Here, have some values: <code>repeat-up</code>, <code>repeat-right</code>, <code>repeat-down</code>, and <code>repeat-left</code>.  In each case, the image would be repeated in the indicated direction from the origin image (the one placed by <code>background-position</code>).  Ironically, really old versions of IE did half of this by not correctly supporting <code>repeat-x</code> and <code>repeat-y</code>, treating them instead as if they were <code>repeat-right</code> and <code>repeat-down</code>.
</p>
<p>
There are occasions where this would be very useful, especially if you can combine the values into something like <code>repeat-down repeat-right</code>, and <em>most</em> especially in conjunction with multiple backgrounds.  So you could put an image stripe across the top of the element background, another one down the left side, and then fill in the rest of the background with a <code>repeat-down repeat-right</code> image.  Not a particularly common case, but the only way to handle it at present is with multiple nested elements, each with its own background and possibly a lot of negative margin trickery, and nobody wants that.  (Which may also be why it isn&#8217;t a particularly common case.)
</p>
<p>
You could also put an image in the center of your page and then a single stripe that goes only downward from behind it.  Like a golf ball on a tee, say; or a tree trunk below the leafy crowm; or a stem from a flower.
</p>
<p>
<strong>Slanted corners</strong> &#8212; sure, why not?  The issues are all the same as with rounded corners; the only difference is that you have a flat corner instead of a rounded one.  It makes joins between different borders styles/colors more obvious, but that&#8217;s a good thing: any solution that works well for the slant corner should work as well for the rounded corner.  Besides, if we&#8217;re already going to the effort of rounding corners, this seems like a pretty easy add-on.
</p>
<p>
<strong>Multiple borders</strong> &#8212; I think this would be quite useful.  I occasionally fake this with a border and an outline (as in my <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/diagnostics/">diagnostic styles</a>) but that only works for two; if you want three or more nested borders (or two or more in IE/Win) you have to start nesting elements.  Also, having multiple borders lets you define your own gradient borders like you were a pixel artist, and who doesn&#8217;t like pixel artists?
</p>
<p>
At the same time, though, I do feel that this should be fairly low on the implementation totem pole.  And, as pointed out in the document, if image borders get implemented then a lot of the need for multiple borders goes away.
</p>
<p>
<strong>Alpha channel image masks</strong> &#8212; the problem I have here is what happens if you, say, try to use an image to alpha-mask a non-replaced element?  How does it scale?  Or does it?  Will there be a <code>mask-stretch</code> property?  Who really wants to stretch an image over a great big <code>div</code> anyway?  (From a visual-results point of view, I mean.)
</p>
<p>
Allowing masks might help in figuring out how to do non-rectangular float areas, in that you could use the alpha image to define the area used for float exclusion.  Combine that with a stretch ability and SVG support, so you can draw scalable vector masks, and I think you&#8217;re really getting somewhere.  (As does <a href="http://mattwilcox.net/">Matt Wilcox</a>; he and I have been chewing this over in <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/19/css3-feedback-animated-shapes/#postcomment">the comments</a> on <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/02/19/css3-feedback-animated-shapes/">the previous post in the series</a>.)
</p></div>

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<p style="font-size: 90%; text-align: right; margin-top: 0.5em; padding-top: 0;">(If you care, there's even an <a href="/eric/thoughts/page/2/">archive of previous thoughts</a>...)</p>

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<li><a href="http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20100117064356428" title="February 8 | Storing this for future use.">Take a picture with the iSight camera when a folder is opened</a></li>
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<li><a href="http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jan/25/carolyn-maloney/congresswoman-says-democratic-presidents-create-mo/" title="January 26 | &#8220;Obviously, luck matters a lot, but when there is a consistent pattern over more than 60 years, it starts to look like more than just luck.&#8221;">Congresswoman says Democratic presidents create more private-sector jobs</a></li>
<li><a href="http://www.ted.com/talks/taylor_mali_what_teachers_make.html" title="January 25 | Truth.">Taylor Mali: What teachers make</a></li>
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