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	<title>Comments on: Looking For Focus</title>
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	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: The CSS reset has been reset &#171; Gabriel de Kadt</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-528693</link>
		<dc:creator>The CSS reset has been reset &#171; Gabriel de Kadt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-528693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] of all CSS resets hits version 2.o beta: Eric Meyer&#8217;s Reset Revisited. See also the subsequent thoughts on how to handle [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] of all CSS resets hits version 2.o beta: Eric Meyer&#8217;s Reset Revisited. See also the subsequent thoughts on how to handle [...]</p>
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		<title>By: graham</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-527548</link>
		<dc:creator>graham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-527548</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;d say option 3 but adding the predefined :focus styles at the bottom of the reset with a comment similar to the previous &lt;i&gt;remember to define focus styles&lt;/i&gt; stating to change the styles or move the style to the main/generic style sheet. 

This keeps at least a basic outline on links for when people forgot to add them in, as was the case when building sites with your previous reset. 

It&#039;s a fuzzy line between resetting everything to a consistent cross browser level and giving developers the nudge they need to make sure they don&#039;t miss important styles out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say option 3 but adding the predefined :focus styles at the bottom of the reset with a comment similar to the previous <i>remember to define focus styles</i> stating to change the styles or move the style to the main/generic style sheet. </p>
<p>This keeps at least a basic outline on links for when people forgot to add them in, as was the case when building sites with your previous reset. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a fuzzy line between resetting everything to a consistent cross browser level and giving developers the nudge they need to make sure they don&#8217;t miss important styles out.</p>
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		<title>By: Wolfgang Löer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-526530</link>
		<dc:creator>Wolfgang Löer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-526530</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I also favor Option 2 (note that I liked it way before it became popular in the comments! ;)).

- Outlines on other elements apparently are no problem right now. If they do appear, it may be better anyway to leave them alone by default, much like with links right now.
- Option 2 also, in contrast to the other options, simplifies the stylesheet a bit, which is always a good thing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also favor Option 2 (note that I liked it way before it became popular in the comments! ;)).</p>
<p>- Outlines on other elements apparently are no problem right now. If they do appear, it may be better anyway to leave them alone by default, much like with links right now.<br />
- Option 2 also, in contrast to the other options, simplifies the stylesheet a bit, which is always a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac Lin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-526078</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac Lin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jan 2011 16:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-526078</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[After reading the discussion in the comments, I agree with option 2. The weirdness with forms and :focus comes from different interactive UI design from the browsers. The section on the outline property in the CSS specification is within the UI chapter and is titled &quot;Dynamic outlines&quot;, and the associated discussion indicates that the motivation was interactive UI elements. I think this is an area where latitude to support innovation from the browser implementers is desirable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading the discussion in the comments, I agree with option 2. The weirdness with forms and :focus comes from different interactive UI design from the browsers. The section on the outline property in the CSS specification is within the UI chapter and is titled &#8220;Dynamic outlines&#8221;, and the associated discussion indicates that the motivation was interactive UI elements. I think this is an area where latitude to support innovation from the browser implementers is desirable.</p>
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		<title>By: Bridget Stewart</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525833</link>
		<dc:creator>Bridget Stewart</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525833</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525242&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;William&lt;/a&gt;,

While I believe you have an excellent point about how differently each browser handles &lt;code&gt;focus&lt;/code&gt; styles, I still don&#039;t find any of those differences to be &quot;disruptive&quot; as was/is the case with the differences in padding, margins and other bits that vendors used in their default styles.

In the case where &lt;code&gt;focus&lt;/code&gt; styles have not been updated to align with other design elements, the default handling has a familiar feel to it for the user of that particular browser. In fact, it has been that issue that has me considering whether it is beneficial to alter the default focus styles at all. But, I believe that is a discussion unto itself, not best served here. Not to mention, I can also argue what&#039;s good about changing those styles to align with the design. So, pardon my split decision on that one.

Regardless, none of those varied styles for &lt;code&gt;focus&lt;/code&gt; have a strong negative impact on layout, which I believe has been the greatest strength of the reset stylesheet.

Just my opinion, of course.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525242" rel="nofollow">William</a>,</p>
<p>While I believe you have an excellent point about how differently each browser handles <code>focus</code> styles, I still don&#8217;t find any of those differences to be &#8220;disruptive&#8221; as was/is the case with the differences in padding, margins and other bits that vendors used in their default styles.</p>
<p>In the case where <code>focus</code> styles have not been updated to align with other design elements, the default handling has a familiar feel to it for the user of that particular browser. In fact, it has been that issue that has me considering whether it is beneficial to alter the default focus styles at all. But, I believe that is a discussion unto itself, not best served here. Not to mention, I can also argue what&#8217;s good about changing those styles to align with the design. So, pardon my split decision on that one.</p>
<p>Regardless, none of those varied styles for <code>focus</code> have a strong negative impact on layout, which I believe has been the greatest strength of the reset stylesheet.</p>
<p>Just my opinion, of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525742</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:46:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, I would vote for #2 as well. As others have said, the outline style is intended for focused elements. If a browser decides that one of the other elements should become focusable (say &#039;address&#039;) for whatever reason, then you&#039;ve lost your focus style for that element.

Future-proofing is noble and all, but you can&#039;t protect against every possibility. And the current reset doesn&#039;t do that anyway - what if a browser decides that all paragraphs should have blue text by default?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I would vote for #2 as well. As others have said, the outline style is intended for focused elements. If a browser decides that one of the other elements should become focusable (say &#8216;address&#8217;) for whatever reason, then you&#8217;ve lost your focus style for that element.</p>
<p>Future-proofing is noble and all, but you can&#8217;t protect against every possibility. And the current reset doesn&#8217;t do that anyway &#8211; what if a browser decides that all paragraphs should have blue text by default?</p>
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		<title>By: Philippe</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525708</link>
		<dc:creator>Philippe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2011 12:56:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I&#039;ve (vocally) noted in the past, I  never liked / used / needed a reset css stylesheet (I set my css, no need for a reset…). That being said, having suffered many times, as a user, from the lack of any focus indication in the past, I&#039;ll vote for option 2, which seems the less damaging one.

(thanks Eric for updating the stylesheet to tackle that problem)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I&#8217;ve (vocally) noted in the past, I  never liked / used / needed a reset css stylesheet (I set my css, no need for a reset…). That being said, having suffered many times, as a user, from the lack of any focus indication in the past, I&#8217;ll vote for option 2, which seems the less damaging one.</p>
<p>(thanks Eric for updating the stylesheet to tackle that problem)</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Olson</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525563</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jan 2011 01:36:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525563</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric as you wrote: &quot;The only things I can think of that get outlines are focused form elements, which the reset doesn’t touch; and focused hyperlinks, which I’m trying to avoid touching in the first place&quot;.

If form elements are to be avoided, &lt;code&gt;a&lt;/code&gt; is a special case, and outline only affects those two sets then there&#039;s no reason to reset the outline at all. Hence Option 2.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric as you wrote: &#8220;The only things I can think of that get outlines are focused form elements, which the reset doesn’t touch; and focused hyperlinks, which I’m trying to avoid touching in the first place&#8221;.</p>
<p>If form elements are to be avoided, <code>a</code> is a special case, and outline only affects those two sets then there&#8217;s no reason to reset the outline at all. Hence Option 2.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525508</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525508</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525472&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ross&lt;/a&gt;: see &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/15/formal-weirdness/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Formal Weirdness&lt;/a&gt;&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525472" rel="nofollow">Ross</a>: see &#8220;<a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2007/05/15/formal-weirdness/" rel="nofollow">Formal Weirdness</a>&#8220;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Olson</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525472</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 19:50:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If it is more [B] then why aren&#039;t form elements dealt with?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it is more [B] then why aren&#8217;t form elements dealt with?</p>
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		<title>By: Cogito</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525464</link>
		<dc:creator>Cogito</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525464</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Definitely option three, you do your part and leave it up to the discerning (we hope) web designers that will be using it.

Though option two looks good, too. That could be equally as helpful, and on the matter of focusable elements turning up in the future, you&#039;ve changed the reset before, wouldn&#039;t be that big of a deal to do it again. ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Definitely option three, you do your part and leave it up to the discerning (we hope) web designers that will be using it.</p>
<p>Though option two looks good, too. That could be equally as helpful, and on the matter of focusable elements turning up in the future, you&#8217;ve changed the reset before, wouldn&#8217;t be that big of a deal to do it again. ;)</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525462</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525462</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a bit more [B] than [A], &lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525460&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ross&lt;/a&gt;, though neither is fully realizable given the tools at our disposal.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a bit more [B] than [A], <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525460" rel="nofollow">Ross</a>, though neither is fully realizable given the tools at our disposal.</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Olson</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525460</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Olson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:30:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525460</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eric, at the top of the CSS Reset page, you wrote:

&lt;blockquote cite=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/&quot;&gt;The goal of a reset stylesheet is to reduce browser inconsistencies in things like default line heights, margins and font sizes of headings, and so on.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think you should clarify the &quot;and so on&quot; because that will really point us in the direction you&#039;re expecting this to go. The list of items you wrote out here all impact the layout of a page and the flow of the text. The conservative interpretation here is that CSS Reset was meant to prevent the trainwreckedness of page layouts that were caused by differing default renderings.

However you&#039;ve included outline, background, and text-decoration attributes, each of which don&#039;t have an impact on page layout. So you were thinking somewhat beyond just page layout/element positioning. But how far? I would say you should have a specific vision for what CSS Reset should be doing for these three attributes.

&lt;strong&gt;I can&lt;/strong&gt; make the argument that resetting background is a good move for consistent rendering of initial page layouts, so I would add that to your first sentence on the CSS Reset page and keep it in the CSS Reset code.

&lt;strong&gt;I cannot&lt;/strong&gt; make a good argument for resetting INS/DEL&#039;s text-decoration since I&#039;ve never used those in a production environment. I have nearly always removed these from my use of your code.

&lt;strong&gt;I cannot&lt;/strong&gt; make a good argument for resetting outline because I&#039;ve never seen the variation in outline rendering cause problems in my pages. (Nor anyone else&#039;s for that matter.) This is why I voted for Option 2 previously.

And here we have the crux of the issue: is CSS Reset meant to [A] fix the problem of &lt;em&gt;seriously broken&lt;/em&gt; layouts due to inconsistent browser defaults or [B] is it meant to &#039;clean slate&#039; all aspects of browser rendering?

I hope you think that [A] is the better way to go here, because [B] implies that the Web Designer knows the very best way to override the local needs of a browser without knowing the context of the user (keyboard or no, mouse/trackball or no, touchscreen or no, etc.).

TL/DR: Get rid of the Outline attribute because it&#039;s not a problem that needs fixing.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eric, at the top of the CSS Reset page, you wrote:</p>
<blockquote cite="http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/css/reset/"><p>The goal of a reset stylesheet is to reduce browser inconsistencies in things like default line heights, margins and font sizes of headings, and so on.</p></blockquote>
<p>I think you should clarify the &#8220;and so on&#8221; because that will really point us in the direction you&#8217;re expecting this to go. The list of items you wrote out here all impact the layout of a page and the flow of the text. The conservative interpretation here is that CSS Reset was meant to prevent the trainwreckedness of page layouts that were caused by differing default renderings.</p>
<p>However you&#8217;ve included outline, background, and text-decoration attributes, each of which don&#8217;t have an impact on page layout. So you were thinking somewhat beyond just page layout/element positioning. But how far? I would say you should have a specific vision for what CSS Reset should be doing for these three attributes.</p>
<p><strong>I can</strong> make the argument that resetting background is a good move for consistent rendering of initial page layouts, so I would add that to your first sentence on the CSS Reset page and keep it in the CSS Reset code.</p>
<p><strong>I cannot</strong> make a good argument for resetting INS/DEL&#8217;s text-decoration since I&#8217;ve never used those in a production environment. I have nearly always removed these from my use of your code.</p>
<p><strong>I cannot</strong> make a good argument for resetting outline because I&#8217;ve never seen the variation in outline rendering cause problems in my pages. (Nor anyone else&#8217;s for that matter.) This is why I voted for Option 2 previously.</p>
<p>And here we have the crux of the issue: is CSS Reset meant to [A] fix the problem of <em>seriously broken</em> layouts due to inconsistent browser defaults or [B] is it meant to &#8216;clean slate&#8217; all aspects of browser rendering?</p>
<p>I hope you think that [A] is the better way to go here, because [B] implies that the Web Designer knows the very best way to override the local needs of a browser without knowing the context of the user (keyboard or no, mouse/trackball or no, touchscreen or no, etc.).</p>
<p>TL/DR: Get rid of the Outline attribute because it&#8217;s not a problem that needs fixing.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525440</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 16:40:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525440</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[After a day of voting, we now have a new leader with 13 votes for option 2, 12 votes for option 3, two votes for option 1, and two votes for &quot;none of the above&quot;.  Wow!  That was quite a swing in the results.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After a day of voting, we now have a new leader with 13 votes for option 2, 12 votes for option 3, two votes for option 1, and two votes for &#8220;none of the above&#8221;.  Wow!  That was quite a swing in the results.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitică U.</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2011/01/05/looking-for-focus/#comment-525408</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitică U.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jan 2011 12:38:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1444#comment-525408</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Option 2 definitely.

Being that CSS reset should be a general solution, those particular cases you have to handle by hand each time, when opting for #3, sounds like an ostricho-camel funny to me.

Even more, opting #2 means maintaining accesability, which was the point, to start with.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Option 2 definitely.</p>
<p>Being that CSS reset should be a general solution, those particular cases you have to handle by hand each time, when opting for #3, sounds like an ostricho-camel funny to me.</p>
<p>Even more, opting #2 means maintaining accesability, which was the point, to start with.</p>
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