Comments on: Unjustified Caption Text http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/ Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it's largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff Thu, 24 May 2012 19:21:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Federico http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2960 Federico Wed, 15 Dec 2004 03:54:47 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2960 Seth (11): That's not a "feature" but a bug. Just add to your CSS: <code>fieldset {border:0px solid}</code> Seth (11): That’s not a “feature” but a bug.
Just add to your CSS:
fieldset {border:0px solid}

]]> By: Seth Thomas Rasmussen http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2945 Seth Thomas Rasmussen Tue, 14 Dec 2004 22:06:17 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2945 The inconsistency with <caption /> is the most absurd simple tag issue since Opera insisted on putting borders on <fieldset /> despite what your stylesheets might have to say on the matter. The inconsistency with <caption /> is the most absurd simple tag issue since Opera insisted on putting borders on <fieldset /> despite what your stylesheets might have to say on the matter.

]]> By: Philippe http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2748 Philippe Fri, 10 Dec 2004 02:34:39 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2748 re [8]: Eric, yes I agree with your interpretation about the display value for <code>caption</code>, and how that works. The problem I see is that IE Win doesn't understand that value. I'm not sure which algorythms are used by Microsoft (according to the css21 specs they can use different ones for <code>table</code>). It then ignores the value 'justify'. Weird is that it aligns the caption as centered. I thought it's default value was 'left', could be wrong, though. I've the habit of always including the text-align property in my stylesheets, to overcome weird inheritance problems. re [8]: Eric, yes I agree with your interpretation about the display value for caption, and how that works. The problem I see is that IE Win doesn’t understand that value. I’m not sure which algorythms are used by Microsoft (according to the css21 specs they can use different ones for table).

It then ignores the value ‘justify’. Weird is that it aligns the caption as centered. I thought it’s default value was ‘left’, could be wrong, though. I’ve the habit of always including the text-align property in my stylesheets, to overcome weird inheritance problems.

]]> By: Kevin http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2695 Kevin Thu, 09 Dec 2004 16:33:55 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2695 Eric: you say in your post, <blockquote cite="Eric">It Eric: you say in your post,

It

]]> By: Eric http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2682 Eric Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:45:55 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2682 Philippe: you're correct that <code>caption</code> is defined to be an inline element in the HTML (and XHTML) DTD. However, as 'Anonymous' pointed out, any element declared to be <code>display: table-caption</code> is treated as a block element. I interpret that (and note it's an interpretation) to mean that a <code>table-caption</code> element should generate a block box, and take on the aspects of a block box, the same as if you declared <code>caption {display: block;}</code>. Al: ! Roger: Yes, I noticed that too but wasn't able to pin it down well enough to report. Once I do, I'll post about it. (Along with another obscure IE/Win table bug I found.) Chris: I'd like to see that. I know there are a very limited number of properties that apply to <code>col</code> elements, but I don't recall seeing anything about <code>caption</code> elements. Philippe: you’re correct that caption is defined to be an inline element in the HTML (and XHTML) DTD. However, as ‘Anonymous’ pointed out, any element declared to be display: table-caption is treated as a block element. I interpret that (and note it’s an interpretation) to mean that a table-caption element should generate a block box, and take on the aspects of a block box, the same as if you declared caption {display: block;}.

Al: !

Roger: Yes, I noticed that too but wasn’t able to pin it down well enough to report. Once I do, I’ll post about it. (Along with another obscure IE/Win table bug I found.)

Chris: I’d like to see that. I know there are a very limited number of properties that apply to col elements, but I don’t recall seeing anything about caption elements.

]]> By: Scott Plumlee http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2678 Scott Plumlee Thu, 09 Dec 2004 14:17:10 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2678 I just ran across a similar situation. IE has a bug in that form text inputs in a fieldset seem to inherit the parent container elements margin. It's one of those things that until you happen to set up the exact "wrong" situation, you'll never see it. I wonder if it would be possible to set up a system where you could dynamically select select a series of HTML elements to be included on a page and apply CSS styles to those elements at the same time, then go back and add more elements as children of the first ones, etc. Then you could possibly build a page to test the exact layout you wanted. Anyway, this is another one to file away for future hair pulling sessions when things don't work. I just ran across a similar situation. IE has a bug in that form text inputs in a fieldset seem to inherit the parent container elements margin. It’s one of those things that until you happen to set up the exact “wrong” situation, you’ll never see it.
I wonder if it would be possible to set up a system where you could dynamically select select a series of HTML elements to be included on a page and apply CSS styles to those elements at the same time, then go back and add more elements as children of the first ones, etc. Then you could possibly build a page to test the exact layout you wanted.
Anyway, this is another one to file away for future hair pulling sessions when things don’t work.

]]> By: Chris Hester http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2676 Chris Hester Thu, 09 Dec 2004 13:51:29 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2676 I read somewhere that captions only take 3 basic formatting styles, which might be border, font and padding. Alas I can't for the life of me find the relevant page again! If I do, I will post the link here. I read somewhere that captions only take 3 basic formatting styles, which might be border, font and padding. Alas I can’t for the life of me find the relevant page again! If I do, I will post the link here.

]]> By: Anonymous http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2664 Anonymous Thu, 09 Dec 2004 08:32:22 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2664 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/tables.html#x2 caption is display: table-caption The specification is not fully clear if table-caption is treated as block-level, but http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#q6 says: "Captions above or below a 'table' element are formatted very much as if they were a block element before or after the table, except that (1) they inherit inheritable properties from the table, and (2) they are not considered to be a block box for the purposes of any 'run-in' element that may precede the table." http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#propdef-text-align "Conforming user agents may interpret the value 'justify' as 'left' or 'right', depending on whether the element's default writing direction is left-to-right or right-to-left, respectively." http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/tables.html#x2
caption is display: table-caption

The specification is not fully clear if table-caption is treated as block-level, but http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/tables.html#q6 says:
“Captions above or below a ‘table’ element are formatted very much as if they were a block element before or after the table, except that (1) they inherit inheritable properties from the table, and (2) they are not considered to be a block box for the purposes of any ‘run-in’ element that may precede the table.”

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#propdef-text-align
“Conforming user agents may interpret the value ‘justify’ as ‘left’ or ‘right’, depending on whether the element’s default writing direction is left-to-right or right-to-left, respectively.”

]]> By: Roger Johansson http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2662 Roger Johansson Thu, 09 Dec 2004 07:36:35 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2662 The caption element is treated differently in Gecko browsers and Safari too. I don't remember which is which right now, but if you add a top margin to the table, one of the two will push the caption away (provided the caption is displayed at the top, obviously), and the other will not, which is what I would expect. Maybe that has something to do with Philippe's comment about caption being an inline element. Guess I'll have to look into that ;) The caption element is treated differently in Gecko browsers and Safari too. I don’t remember which is which right now, but if you add a top margin to the table, one of the two will push the caption away (provided the caption is displayed at the top, obviously), and the other will not, which is what I would expect.

Maybe that has something to do with Philippe’s comment about caption being an inline element. Guess I’ll have to look into that ;)

]]> By: Bernd http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2661 Bernd Thu, 09 Dec 2004 06:37:12 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2661 I think the problem has its root that they use the html align attribute to align text within a caption rather than the caption box. So align="left" would not put the caption box left to the table as required by html 4.01 but would make the text left aligned. I think the problem has its root that they use the html align attribute to align text within a caption rather than the caption box. So align=”left” would not put the caption box left to the table as required by html 4.01 but would make the text left aligned.

]]> By: Al http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2658 Al Thu, 09 Dec 2004 05:22:56 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2658 . .

]]> By: Philippe http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2657 Philippe Thu, 09 Dec 2004 05:14:20 +0000 http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2004/12/08/unjustified-caption-text/#comment-2657 I've done that head-scratching a while ago for a problem with padding Setting it to <code>display:block</code> explicitly did solve my problem. Hmm, according to the <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/tables.html#edef-CAPTION">html 4.01 specs</a> it is an inline element. Or do I read that wrong ? I’ve done that head-scratching a while ago for a problem with padding Setting it to display:block explicitly did solve my problem. Hmm, according to the html 4.01 specs it is an inline element. Or do I read that wrong ?

]]>