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	<title>Comments on: Seeking Math Help</title>
	<atom:link href="http://meyerweb.com/index.php?year=2009&#038;monthnum=01&#038;day=14&#038;name=seeking-math-help&#038;feed=feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: eqd</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-441791</link>
		<dc:creator>eqd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:04:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-441791</guid>
		<description>If 2 D/V is small (&lt;&lt;1) then Exp(-2 D/V) = 1-2 D/V (approximately) and  the whole eqn. becomes quadratic in D hence can be easily solved.

Otherwise the it cannot be solved in terms of elementary
(high-school) functions.

Best regards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If 2 D/V is small (&lt;&lt;1) then Exp(-2 D/V) = 1-2 D/V (approximately) and  the whole eqn. becomes quadratic in D hence can be easily solved.</p>
<p>Otherwise the it cannot be solved in terms of elementary<br />
(high-school) functions.</p>
<p>Best regards.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Stevie D</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436607</link>
		<dc:creator>Stevie D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436607</guid>
		<description>As others have said, there is no way to rearrange that formula in terms of D. While you can use iterative and brute-force methods, Microsoft Excel can very easily do all the legwork for you! (Method below is for Excel 2000, commands might be different in newer versions!)

Put your known variables into Excel in cells A2:A5 (F,Y,D,V in that order - just because that&#039;s the order they cropped up in the formula), you&#039;ll have to make something up for D, then in A1 type the formula in:
=(3.07*A2*A3*(1+1.4*(A4/A5)*EXP(-2*A4/A5)))/(A4^2)

With A1 highlighted, go to Tools &gt; Goal Seek. Set &quot;to value&quot; to what you want Q to be, and &quot;by changing cell&quot; to A4, and it will give you an approximation to about 3 or 4 dp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As others have said, there is no way to rearrange that formula in terms of D. While you can use iterative and brute-force methods, Microsoft Excel can very easily do all the legwork for you! (Method below is for Excel 2000, commands might be different in newer versions!)</p>
<p>Put your known variables into Excel in cells A2:A5 (F,Y,D,V in that order &#8211; just because that&#8217;s the order they cropped up in the formula), you&#8217;ll have to make something up for D, then in A1 type the formula in:<br />
=(3.07*A2*A3*(1+1.4*(A4/A5)*EXP(-2*A4/A5)))/(A4^2)</p>
<p>With A1 highlighted, go to Tools &gt; Goal Seek. Set &#8220;to value&#8221; to what you want Q to be, and &#8220;by changing cell&#8221; to A4, and it will give you an approximation to about 3 or 4 dp.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: AxsDeny</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436370</link>
		<dc:creator>AxsDeny</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436370</guid>
		<description>My friend is a math professor. He says the following in response to me telling him that people are reporting that this isn&#039;t possible:

&quot;&lt;em&gt;People are, in this case, correct. Variables in a linear term and an exponential term are rarely solvable algebraically.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My friend is a math professor. He says the following in response to me telling him that people are reporting that this isn&#8217;t possible:</p>
<p>&#8220;<em>People are, in this case, correct. Variables in a linear term and an exponential term are rarely solvable algebraically.</em>&#8220;</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436335</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:40:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436335</guid>
		<description>Oooo.  Lights in my head (are those &quot;headlights&quot;?) are beginning to slowly come on.  Thank you all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oooo.  Lights in my head (are those &#8220;headlights&#8221;?) are beginning to slowly come on.  Thank you all!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Yann</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436334</link>
		<dc:creator>Yann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436334</guid>
		<description>Hi again, Erik (just kiddin&#039;!)

Jason&#039;s code iterates until two consecutive values of the sequence (x0 &amp; x1) are close enough (10^-6 in his code) to be considered a solution X. But X=-2*D/V (see comment #25) so D=-X*V/2</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi again, Erik (just kiddin&#8217;!)</p>
<p>Jason&#8217;s code iterates until two consecutive values of the sequence (x0 &amp; x1) are close enough (10^-6 in his code) to be considered a solution X. But X=-2*D/V (see comment #25) so D=-X*V/2</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Philip (flip) Kromer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436333</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip (flip) Kromer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436333</guid>
		<description>Hrm. Replace initial _ with spaces.
&lt;code&gt;
import math
def distance_for_luminance(Q, F, Y, V):
__# set up some stuff
__c = 3.07 * F * Y / Q
__a = 1.04 / V
__f = math.exp(-2.0/V)
__# start with a terrible guess
__D = math.sqrt(a)
__# A whole bunch of times (&quot;more than enough&quot;),
__for i in xrange(10000):
____# Turn the good guess into a better guess
____D_new = (c / D) + a*c*(f**D)
____# And adopt the better guess as our new value
____D = D_new
__return D
&lt;/code&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hrm. Replace initial _ with spaces.<br />
<code><br />
import math<br />
def distance_for_luminance(Q, F, Y, V):<br />
__# set up some stuff<br />
__c = 3.07 * F * Y / Q<br />
__a = 1.04 / V<br />
__f = math.exp(-2.0/V)<br />
__# start with a terrible guess<br />
__D = math.sqrt(a)<br />
__# A whole bunch of times ("more than enough"),<br />
__for i in xrange(10000):<br />
____# Turn the good guess into a better guess<br />
____D_new = (c / D) + a*c*(f**D)<br />
____# And adopt the better guess as our new value<br />
____D = D_new<br />
__return D<br />
</code></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Philip (flip) Kromer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436332</link>
		<dc:creator>Philip (flip) Kromer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436332</guid>
		<description>You are exactly correct about both points, Eric.  Here is what&#039;s going on.

Daniel and Jason are both relying on a magic trick, the &quot;iterative solution&quot;: find an alchemy turning a good guess into a better guess. If you find such an alchemy and invoke it on a reasonable guess many, many times, you can find a result as close to the true answer as you have patience and bits.  

Here is a working python function:
&lt;code&gt;
import math
def distance_for_luminance(Q, F, Y, V):
    # set up some stuff
    c = 3.07 * F * Y / Q
    a = 1.04 / V
    f = math.exp(-2.0/V)
    # start with a terrible guess
    D = math.sqrt(a)
    # A whole bunch of times (&quot;more than enough&quot;),
    for i in xrange(10000):
        # Turn the good guess into a better guess
        D_new = (c / D) + a*c*(f**D)
        # And adopt the better guess as our new value
        D = D_new
    return D

I think you&#039;ll have to reinsert indentation.

Now, you may not believe in this magic trick, and why should you? (A mathematician can tell you why, and when, that&#039;s what Grad School is for, but never mind.) The beauty is that you don&#039;t have to trust the method: a true solution speaks for itself. 

Perhaps by iteration, or perhaps from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1990/02/1990-02-04.shtml&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a whisper by the goddess Namagiri into your ear as you slept&lt;/a&gt;, just plug all values into both sides and &lt;em&gt;see&lt;/em&gt; how far off it is.&lt;/code&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are exactly correct about both points, Eric.  Here is what&#8217;s going on.</p>
<p>Daniel and Jason are both relying on a magic trick, the &#8220;iterative solution&#8221;: find an alchemy turning a good guess into a better guess. If you find such an alchemy and invoke it on a reasonable guess many, many times, you can find a result as close to the true answer as you have patience and bits.  </p>
<p>Here is a working python function:<br />
<code><br />
import math<br />
def distance_for_luminance(Q, F, Y, V):<br />
    # set up some stuff<br />
    c = 3.07 * F * Y / Q<br />
    a = 1.04 / V<br />
    f = math.exp(-2.0/V)<br />
    # start with a terrible guess<br />
    D = math.sqrt(a)<br />
    # A whole bunch of times ("more than enough"),<br />
    for i in xrange(10000):<br />
        # Turn the good guess into a better guess<br />
        D_new = (c / D) + a*c*(f**D)<br />
        # And adopt the better guess as our new value<br />
        D = D_new<br />
    return D</p>
<p>I think you'll have to reinsert indentation.</p>
<p>Now, you may not believe in this magic trick, and why should you? (A mathematician can tell you why, and when, that's what Grad School is for, but never mind.) The beauty is that you don't have to trust the method: a true solution speaks for itself. </p>
<p>Perhaps by iteration, or perhaps from <a href="http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1990/02/1990-02-04.shtml" rel="nofollow">a whisper by the goddess Namagiri into your ear as you slept</a>, just plug all values into both sides and <em>see</em> how far off it is.</code></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436330</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436330</guid>
		<description>I understood you up to the very last line about my actual interest, &lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436327&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jason&lt;/a&gt;.  (And it&#039;s &quot;Meyer&quot;-- I paid extra to get have the trailing &quot;s&quot; removed, y&#039;know.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I understood you up to the very last line about my actual interest, <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436327" rel="nofollow">Jason</a>.  (And it&#8217;s &#8220;Meyer&#8221;&#8211; I paid extra to get have the trailing &#8220;s&#8221; removed, y&#8217;know.)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jason Davis</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436327</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436327</guid>
		<description>@Kevin:
Note that the domain of D is strictly positive; even including D=0 doesn&#039;t introduce much difficulty. Glancing at the original function for Q, it definitely looks to be strict-monotonically decreasing, which should imply the existence of an inverse function over its range. (Existence doesn&#039;t say anything about how to construct it, however.)

@Meyers:
Regarding the iteration, think of it as making a guess (x_0), then using that guess to make a *better* guess (e.g. going from x_n to x_{n+1}).

So:
var x0 = -Math.sqrt(a);
var x1 = -Math.sqrt(a*(1 - 0.7 * x0 * Math.exp(x0)));
while (Math.abs(x1-x0) &gt; 1e-6) {
    x0 = x1;
    x1 = -Math.sqrt(a*(1 - 0.7 * x0 * Math.exp(x0)));
}
alert(x1);

That would be some JS to quickly calculate my re-parameterized value of x. (Of course, x=-2*D/V, so you are actually interested in D=-x1*V/2.)

&lt;small&gt;[Fished this version of the comment out of the spam filters and restored it.  Sorry about that, Jason! -E.]&lt;/small&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kevin:<br />
Note that the domain of D is strictly positive; even including D=0 doesn&#8217;t introduce much difficulty. Glancing at the original function for Q, it definitely looks to be strict-monotonically decreasing, which should imply the existence of an inverse function over its range. (Existence doesn&#8217;t say anything about how to construct it, however.)</p>
<p>@Meyers:<br />
Regarding the iteration, think of it as making a guess (x_0), then using that guess to make a *better* guess (e.g. going from x_n to x_{n+1}).</p>
<p>So:<br />
var x0 = -Math.sqrt(a);<br />
var x1 = -Math.sqrt(a*(1 &#8211; 0.7 * x0 * Math.exp(x0)));<br />
while (Math.abs(x1-x0) &gt; 1e-6) {<br />
    x0 = x1;<br />
    x1 = -Math.sqrt(a*(1 &#8211; 0.7 * x0 * Math.exp(x0)));<br />
}<br />
alert(x1);</p>
<p>That would be some JS to quickly calculate my re-parameterized value of x. (Of course, x=-2*D/V, so you are actually interested in D=-x1*V/2.)</p>
<p><small>[Fished this version of the comment out of the spam filters and restored it.  Sorry about that, Jason! -E.]</small></p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Yann</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436296</link>
		<dc:creator>Yann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 06:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436296</guid>
		<description>When Jason says x_n he means &lt;var&gt;x&lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/var&gt; :-D

And Daniel&#039;s i is just to express that repeating the assignation below 1000 times you&#039;ll get an accurate enough solution</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When Jason says x_n he means &lt;var&gt;x&lt;sub&gt;n&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/var&gt; :-D</p>
<p>And Daniel&#8217;s i is just to express that repeating the assignation below 1000 times you&#8217;ll get an accurate enough solution</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436278</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 03:32:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436278</guid>
		<description>I believe you when you say yours and Jason&#039;s approaches are simpler, Daniel.  The only problem is that I don&#039;t really understand what either of you are saying.  Or, more precisely, how to actually go about doing what you&#039;re telling me to do.

Like, at the end of your comment, you do a &quot;for i in&quot; operation with no actual i in the equation, which has the solve-for term D on both sides of the equation.  At which point my brain shorts out.  Sorry.

I think maybe all the brain cells that would normally go toward understanding that kind of thing are currently devoted to holding a functional copy of the CSS line layout model.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe you when you say yours and Jason&#8217;s approaches are simpler, Daniel.  The only problem is that I don&#8217;t really understand what either of you are saying.  Or, more precisely, how to actually go about doing what you&#8217;re telling me to do.</p>
<p>Like, at the end of your comment, you do a &#8220;for i in&#8221; operation with no actual i in the equation, which has the solve-for term D on both sides of the equation.  At which point my brain shorts out.  Sorry.</p>
<p>I think maybe all the brain cells that would normally go toward understanding that kind of thing are currently devoted to holding a functional copy of the CSS line layout model.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436274</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436274</guid>
		<description>&quot;Well, dang. Looks like I&quot;ll have to go with incrementing (or average-narrowing) D until I hit a reasonable approximation of the value of Q I&quot;m seeking.&quot;

You can&#039;t avoid iteration. But the recurrence I already suggested is way simpler than the bisection method. Here is the core of it:

c = 3.07/1.4*F*Y*V
d = -Q*V/1.4
f = math.exp(-2.0/V)
D = 0.0
for i in xrange(1000) :
    D = -c/(d*D+f**D)

Or try Jason&#039;s recurrence, it&#039;s mostly the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Well, dang. Looks like I&#8221;ll have to go with incrementing (or average-narrowing) D until I hit a reasonable approximation of the value of Q I&#8221;m seeking.&#8221;</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t avoid iteration. But the recurrence I already suggested is way simpler than the bisection method. Here is the core of it:</p>
<p>c = 3.07/1.4*F*Y*V<br />
d = -Q*V/1.4<br />
f = math.exp(-2.0/V)<br />
D = 0.0<br />
for i in xrange(1000) :<br />
    D = -c/(d*D+f**D)</p>
<p>Or try Jason&#8217;s recurrence, it&#8217;s mostly the same.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436270</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436270</guid>
		<description>@ #22 (Jason Davis)

When D = 0, Q is undefined.
When D &gt; 0, Q is positive.
When D &lt; 0, Q is negative.

I don&#039;t know where you got your equation, but the derivative of the equation at the top of the post is undefined at D = 0.  Therefore, the function is not continuous.

The function may be solvable for only positive values of D, but I have no idea how to do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ #22 (Jason Davis)</p>
<p>When D = 0, Q is undefined.<br />
When D &gt; 0, Q is positive.<br />
When D &lt; 0, Q is negative.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know where you got your equation, but the derivative of the equation at the top of the post is undefined at D = 0.  Therefore, the function is not continuous.</p>
<p>The function may be solvable for only positive values of D, but I have no idea how to do that.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436269</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:03:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436269</guid>
		<description>Well, dang.  Looks like I&#039;ll have to go with incrementing (or average-narrowing) D until I hit a reasonable approximation of the value of Q I&#039;m seeking.

Incidentally, for those who are curious:

Q = radiant energy (cal/cm^2)
F = thermal partition (unitless)
Y = yield (KT)
V = visibility (miles)
D = distance (miles)

So it&#039;s easy (relatively speaking) to calculate the radiant energy at a given distance.  I had assumed that the inverse, finding the distance at which one find a given radiant energy, was a matter of reshuffling.  Kind of frustrating to find that&#039;s not so.

Thanks for all the effort and input, folks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, dang.  Looks like I&#8217;ll have to go with incrementing (or average-narrowing) D until I hit a reasonable approximation of the value of Q I&#8217;m seeking.</p>
<p>Incidentally, for those who are curious:</p>
<p>Q = radiant energy (cal/cm^2)<br />
F = thermal partition (unitless)<br />
Y = yield (KT)<br />
V = visibility (miles)<br />
D = distance (miles)</p>
<p>So it&#8217;s easy (relatively speaking) to calculate the radiant energy at a given distance.  I had assumed that the inverse, finding the distance at which one find a given radiant energy, was a matter of reshuffling.  Kind of frustrating to find that&#8217;s not so.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the effort and input, folks!</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Winsnes</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/01/14/seeking-math-help/#comment-436264</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Winsnes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Jan 2009 01:18:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/?p=994#comment-436264</guid>
		<description>This is as far as I got before I gave up

QV = (3.07FYV / D^2) + ((4.298FY / D) * (e^-2)^(D / V))

or if you prefer

Q = (3.07FY / D^2) + ((4.298FY / D^2) * (D / V) * (e^-2)^(D/V))

The exponentials are getting to me :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is as far as I got before I gave up</p>
<p>QV = (3.07FYV / D^2) + ((4.298FY / D) * (e^-2)^(D / V))</p>
<p>or if you prefer</p>
<p>Q = (3.07FY / D^2) + ((4.298FY / D^2) * (D / V) * (e^-2)^(D/V))</p>
<p>The exponentials are getting to me :(</p>
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