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	<title>Comments on: Pseudo-Phantoms</title>
	<atom:link href="http://meyerweb.com/index.php?year=2009&#038;monthnum=11&#038;day=03&#038;name=pseudo-phantoms&#038;feed=feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/</link>
	<description>Things that Eric A. Meyer, CSS expert, writes about on his personal Web site; it&#039;s largely Web standards and Web technology, but also various bits of culture, politics, personal observations, and other miscellaneous stuff</description>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-575198</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2011 03:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-575198</guid>
		<description>If for whatever reason you want to remove internet explorer developers tool menu here is a video i made 

http://vid4.us/free_video_tutorial/157/internet-explorer-how-to-disable-developer-tools-menu/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If for whatever reason you want to remove internet explorer developers tool menu here is a video i made </p>
<p><a href="http://vid4.us/free_video_tutorial/157/internet-explorer-how-to-disable-developer-tools-menu/" rel="nofollow">http://vid4.us/free_video_tutorial/157/internet-explorer-how-to-disable-developer-tools-menu/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Learning To Use The :before And :after Pseudo-Elements In CSS - Smashing Magazine</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-566352</link>
		<dc:creator>Learning To Use The :before And :after Pseudo-Elements In CSS - Smashing Magazine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2011 11:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-566352</guid>
		<description>[...] thing to keep in mind is that developer tools such as Firebug do not show the content generated by pseudo-elements. So, if overused, pseudo-elements could cause maintainability headaches and make debugging a much [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] thing to keep in mind is that developer tools such as Firebug do not show the content generated by pseudo-elements. So, if overused, pseudo-elements could cause maintainability headaches and make debugging a much [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Colby Russell</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-499311</link>
		<dc:creator>Colby Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 May 2010 02:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-499311</guid>
		<description>For the record (in response to Olli), DOM Inspector still allows you to set the &lt;code&gt;hover&lt;/code&gt;, &lt;code&gt;active&lt;/code&gt;, and &lt;code&gt;focus&lt;/code&gt; pseudo-classes, but no help on pseudo-elements. The appropriate DOM Inspector bug for pseudo-elements is &lt;a href=&quot;https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185431&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bug 185431&lt;/a&gt;. Dylan Helling has written a simple patch to extend Gecko&#039;s inspector interface (used by Firebug, as well) to allow querying individual pseudo-elements. That&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557726&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bug 557726&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the record (in response to Olli), DOM Inspector still allows you to set the <code>hover</code>, <code>active</code>, and <code>focus</code> pseudo-classes, but no help on pseudo-elements. The appropriate DOM Inspector bug for pseudo-elements is <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185431" rel="nofollow">bug 185431</a>. Dylan Helling has written a simple patch to extend Gecko&#8217;s inspector interface (used by Firebug, as well) to allow querying individual pseudo-elements. That&#8217;s <a href="https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=557726" rel="nofollow">bug 557726</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-489428</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 15:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-489428</guid>
		<description>Dean, I see Firebug showing styles inherited from &lt;code&gt;:first-child&lt;/code&gt; styles.  If you go to &lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/pseudos-inspector-test.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the test page I linked in the post&lt;/a&gt; and inspect the (newly added) italicized text in the first list item, you should see the &lt;code&gt;li:first-child&lt;/code&gt; styles listed as being inherited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dean, I see Firebug showing styles inherited from <code>:first-child</code> styles.  If you go to <a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/css/tests/pseudos-inspector-test.html" rel="nofollow">the test page I linked in the post</a> and inspect the (newly added) italicized text in the first list item, you should see the <code>li:first-child</code> styles listed as being inherited.</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Hall</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-489405</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 09:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-489405</guid>
		<description>I must be missing something, but I&#039;m failing to see where Firebug shows inherited style information for the :first-child pseudo-class. Gecko renders it properly, but Firebug never seems to report it.

Also of note: I thought I had a simple, ad hoc method of debugging the :first-line pseudo-class, but it failed also.

HTML:

&lt;code&gt;&lt;p&gt;&lt;span&gt;Lorem&lt;/span&gt; ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/code&gt;

CSS:

&lt;code&gt;p:first-line { font-variant: small-caps; }&lt;/code&gt;

Both Gecko (Firefox) and Webkit (Safari) render the text in the span properly as small caps, but both Firebug and Webkit&#039;s inspector report the span&#039;s font-variant property as &quot;normal&quot; (inherited). While the :first-line pseudo-class isn&#039;t represented in the DOM, the span is, and its style is not being reported properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must be missing something, but I&#8217;m failing to see where Firebug shows inherited style information for the :first-child pseudo-class. Gecko renders it properly, but Firebug never seems to report it.</p>
<p>Also of note: I thought I had a simple, ad hoc method of debugging the :first-line pseudo-class, but it failed also.</p>
<p>HTML:</p>
<p><code>&lt;p&gt;&lt;span&gt;Lorem&lt;/span&gt; ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipisicing elit, sed do eiusmod&lt;/p&gt;</code></p>
<p>CSS:</p>
<p><code>p:first-line { font-variant: small-caps; }</code></p>
<p>Both Gecko (Firefox) and Webkit (Safari) render the text in the span properly as small caps, but both Firebug and Webkit&#8217;s inspector report the span&#8217;s font-variant property as &#8220;normal&#8221; (inherited). While the :first-line pseudo-class isn&#8217;t represented in the DOM, the span is, and its style is not being reported properly.</p>
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		<title>By: Tab Atkins</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482497</link>
		<dc:creator>Tab Atkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:04:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482497</guid>
		<description>@Tiff Fehr: That last hack may fail in a majorly bad way relatively soon, when browsers start supporting content-replacement via the content: property on normal elements.  If I were you I&#039;d stop doing that *right now*, lest you forget and suddenly people start complaining about odd debugging messages showing up on your pages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Tiff Fehr: That last hack may fail in a majorly bad way relatively soon, when browsers start supporting content-replacement via the content: property on normal elements.  If I were you I&#8217;d stop doing that *right now*, lest you forget and suddenly people start complaining about odd debugging messages showing up on your pages.</p>
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		<title>By: Norman</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482488</link>
		<dc:creator>Norman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482488</guid>
		<description>these &quot;bugs&quot; are known at least in &lt;a href=&quot;http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list?can=2&amp;q=pseudo&amp;colspec=ID+Type+Status+Owner+Test+Summary&amp;cells=tiles&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;firebug&lt;/a&gt; .. i guess its just pretty hard to make it work.

if you want to see the :hover pseudo classes for links in firebug, you need to use the inspect tool, hovering over the link and click it.. firebug now shows you the :hover pseudo class.

apart from pseudo classes and elements, each @* expression, like @font-face, @media etc. are also not shown by firebug (don&#039;t know about the other inspectors tho)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>these &#8220;bugs&#8221; are known at least in <a href="http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list?can=2&amp;q=pseudo&amp;colspec=ID+Type+Status+Owner+Test+Summary&amp;cells=tiles" rel="nofollow">firebug</a> .. i guess its just pretty hard to make it work.</p>
<p>if you want to see the :hover pseudo classes for links in firebug, you need to use the inspect tool, hovering over the link and click it.. firebug now shows you the :hover pseudo class.</p>
<p>apart from pseudo classes and elements, each @* expression, like @font-face, @media etc. are also not shown by firebug (don&#8217;t know about the other inspectors tho)</p>
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		<title>By: David Lantner</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482474</link>
		<dc:creator>David Lantner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 20:48:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482474</guid>
		<description>This issue has already been reported within the Firebug project at Google Code: &lt;strong&gt;Issue &lt;a href=&quot;http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/detail?id=365&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;365&lt;/a&gt;: Show :after and :before properties in CSS tab&lt;/strong&gt;

Personally, I find it confusing that the &lt;a href=&quot;http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd565622%28VS.85%29.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Developer Tools in IE8&lt;/a&gt; shows the styles associated with a DOM node for any medium, &lt;em&gt;even if the medium is not active&lt;/em&gt;, such as print styles. Also, the Developer Tools would be much more useful if it could show dynamically-generated DOM nodes. Still, it&#039;s a great resource and many people (myself included) benefit from it being included in the browser by default as opposed to being an add-on.

The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.microsoft.com/downloadS/details.aspx?familyid=E59C3964-672D-4511-BB3E-2D5E1DB91038&amp;displaylang=en&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;IE Developer Toolbar for IE6 and IE7&lt;/a&gt; is useful, too, and it will show you the styles for supported pseudo-elements and pseudo-classes such as &quot;&lt;code&gt;a:link&lt;/code&gt;&quot; if you select the element in the DOM tree and then go to the View menu, choose &quot;Source&quot; then &quot;DOM (Element + Styles).&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This issue has already been reported within the Firebug project at Google Code: <strong>Issue <a href="http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/detail?id=365" rel="nofollow">365</a>: Show :after and :before properties in CSS tab</strong></p>
<p>Personally, I find it confusing that the <a href="http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd565622%28VS.85%29.aspx" rel="nofollow">Developer Tools in IE8</a> shows the styles associated with a DOM node for any medium, <em>even if the medium is not active</em>, such as print styles. Also, the Developer Tools would be much more useful if it could show dynamically-generated DOM nodes. Still, it&#8217;s a great resource and many people (myself included) benefit from it being included in the browser by default as opposed to being an add-on.</p>
<p>The <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/downloadS/details.aspx?familyid=E59C3964-672D-4511-BB3E-2D5E1DB91038&amp;displaylang=en" rel="nofollow">IE Developer Toolbar for IE6 and IE7</a> is useful, too, and it will show you the styles for supported pseudo-elements and pseudo-classes such as &#8220;<code>a:link</code>&#8221; if you select the element in the DOM tree and then go to the View menu, choose &#8220;Source&#8221; then &#8220;DOM (Element + Styles).&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ollie</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482384</link>
		<dc:creator>Ollie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 03:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482384</guid>
		<description>Once upon a time in Mozilla, before Firebug (and maybe even Firefox), the venerable DOM Inspector had a nice feature for this. A contextual menu allowed one to explicitly set the pseudo state applied to the focused element. I&#039;ve sorely missed this feature in Firebug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once upon a time in Mozilla, before Firebug (and maybe even Firefox), the venerable DOM Inspector had a nice feature for this. A contextual menu allowed one to explicitly set the pseudo state applied to the focused element. I&#8217;ve sorely missed this feature in Firebug.</p>
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		<title>By: Adrain Anderson</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482355</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrain Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 22:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482355</guid>
		<description>Thanks for pointing that out John. I also primarily use &quot;Inspect Element&quot; and had just about forgotten about the CSS tab in the Firebug toolbar. I&#039;m surprised this doesen&#039;t get mentioned more around the web.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for pointing that out John. I also primarily use &#8220;Inspect Element&#8221; and had just about forgotten about the CSS tab in the Firebug toolbar. I&#8217;m surprised this doesen&#8217;t get mentioned more around the web.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenneth</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482336</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenneth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482336</guid>
		<description>While I definitely see your point and agree that it&#039;s annoying for debugging purposes, I don&#039;t think the tools are in the wrong. You&#039;re inspecting the P element and you see its styles and rules. You&#039;re not expecting the (pseudo and thus not in the &lt;abbr title=&quot;Document Object Model&quot;&gt;DOM&lt;/abbr&gt;) :after element, so you don&#039;t see its rules.

Really, &lt;abbr title=&quot;In My Humble Opinion&quot;&gt;IMHO&lt;/abbr&gt;, they should adapt the DOM engines and debuggers to artificially put the :after elements into the DOM, at least for debugging purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I definitely see your point and agree that it&#8217;s annoying for debugging purposes, I don&#8217;t think the tools are in the wrong. You&#8217;re inspecting the P element and you see its styles and rules. You&#8217;re not expecting the (pseudo and thus not in the <abbr title="Document Object Model">DOM</abbr>) :after element, so you don&#8217;t see its rules.</p>
<p>Really, <abbr title="In My Humble Opinion">IMHO</abbr>, they should adapt the DOM engines and debuggers to artificially put the :after elements into the DOM, at least for debugging purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Max Design - standards based web design, development and training &#187; Some links for light reading (3/11/09)</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482331</link>
		<dc:creator>Max Design - standards based web design, development and training &#187; Some links for light reading (3/11/09)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482331</guid>
		<description>[...] Pseudo-Phantoms [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Pseudo-Phantoms [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tiff Fehr</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482328</link>
		<dc:creator>Tiff Fehr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 20:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482328</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve run into web inspector/DOM reporting over-zealousness from a different, likely sacrilegious direction.  My company&#039;s CSS is shared across different teams and skill-sets.  We aim for liberal commenting (later stripped out by hand or caught by our compressor, of course), however we&#039;ve also started to include comments via invalid CSS properties, too, so they show up in Firebug, etc. Example:  &#039;cleanup-note: &quot;background img should move to sprite&quot;;&#039;.  

The challenge is that we&#039;d like those comments to show up in web inspectors where a designer is *investigating* an issue rather than having to go into the code (and our CMS + source control monolith) itself.  

Of course, the browsers + web inspectors strip out invalid properties.  The work-around we&#039;ve used so far is something like &#039;content: &quot;NOTES: ...blah...&quot;;&#039; without a pseudo-class of :before or :after.  Gross but it works.

I&#039;m glad that web inspectors have become so ingrained in web workflow that we&#039;re nitpicking advanced details.  Is our web-inspection sophistication is pushing past the rendered DOM?  Would the ability to provide custom/different validation schemas to web inspectors help?  If so, how does the community take on a bigger, standardizing(?) role in web inspector features?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve run into web inspector/DOM reporting over-zealousness from a different, likely sacrilegious direction.  My company&#8217;s CSS is shared across different teams and skill-sets.  We aim for liberal commenting (later stripped out by hand or caught by our compressor, of course), however we&#8217;ve also started to include comments via invalid CSS properties, too, so they show up in Firebug, etc. Example:  &#8216;cleanup-note: &#8220;background img should move to sprite&#8221;;&#8217;.  </p>
<p>The challenge is that we&#8217;d like those comments to show up in web inspectors where a designer is *investigating* an issue rather than having to go into the code (and our CMS + source control monolith) itself.  </p>
<p>Of course, the browsers + web inspectors strip out invalid properties.  The work-around we&#8217;ve used so far is something like &#8216;content: &#8220;NOTES: &#8230;blah&#8230;&#8221;;&#8217; without a pseudo-class of :before or :after.  Gross but it works.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad that web inspectors have become so ingrained in web workflow that we&#8217;re nitpicking advanced details.  Is our web-inspection sophistication is pushing past the rendered DOM?  Would the ability to provide custom/different validation schemas to web inspectors help?  If so, how does the community take on a bigger, standardizing(?) role in web inspector features?</p>
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		<title>By: John Lascurettes</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482321</link>
		<dc:creator>John Lascurettes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:49:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482321</guid>
		<description>The missing pseudo elements are not the fault of Firebug as far as I know, but rather Gecko&#039;s own DOM reporting, for that is what Firebug is tapping into to report back to you. Sounds like a fine issue/improvement to file over at Bugzilla. 

For what it&#039;s worth, I can get firebug to also show me the :hover pseudo class if I first click &quot;inspect&quot; in the Firebug toolbar and then hover over and click the element on which I&#039;m trying to see the CSS cascade and values. Normally, I just right-click an element and use the contextual menu to go to &quot;inspect element&quot; but this method will never get you the :hover values.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The missing pseudo elements are not the fault of Firebug as far as I know, but rather Gecko&#8217;s own DOM reporting, for that is what Firebug is tapping into to report back to you. Sounds like a fine issue/improvement to file over at Bugzilla. </p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, I can get firebug to also show me the :hover pseudo class if I first click &#8220;inspect&#8221; in the Firebug toolbar and then hover over and click the element on which I&#8217;m trying to see the CSS cascade and values. Normally, I just right-click an element and use the contextual menu to go to &#8220;inspect element&#8221; but this method will never get you the :hover values.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Meyer</title>
		<link>http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482317</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Meyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 18:11:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/?p=1180#comment-482317</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482313&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jeff L&lt;/a&gt;: correct, I mean IE8&#039;s tool.  I didn&#039;t test out the toolbar for IE6 and IE7.  I&#039;ll edit the post to clarify that.  Thanks!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://meyerweb.com/eric/thoughts/2009/11/03/pseudo-phantoms/#comment-482313" rel="nofollow">Jeff L</a>: correct, I mean IE8&#8242;s tool.  I didn&#8217;t test out the toolbar for IE6 and IE7.  I&#8217;ll edit the post to clarify that.  Thanks!</p>
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