Posts in the Browsers Category

Opera and S5 1.2a1

Published 18 years, 11 months past

Just as a quick update, I’ve done some testing of S5 1.2a1 in the latest version of Opera I have available (which, under OS X, is version 8.51).  I’m happy to report that this copy of Opera has all of the S5 features supported in other browsers.  Incremental display, font scaling, keyboard navigation, and even the notes window are all present and account for.

To use the notes feature, here’s what I do.  Upon loading the base slideshow into Opera, I position the window on my secondary monitor, which is here taking the role of an LCD projector.  Then I hit “n”, causing the notes window to appear on my laptop’s monitor (in the role of the presenter’s machine).  After bringing the slide show window back to the fore, I select “Full Screen” in the “View” menu, and the presentation maximizes itself to the secondary monitor.  As I navigate through the slide show, the notes window stays perfectly synched with the presentation.

There may be better ways to get the notes window on the primary monitor and the presentation on the secondary monitor, but that one worked for me.

I did notice some odd bugs here and there in Opera 8.02, a copy of which I also have hanging around, but nothing that was a show-stopper.  The one that sticks out in my mind was that multi-slide jumping wasn’t cleared out after the jump.  For example, from the first slide I’d type “3 (right arrow)” to skip to slide four.  Hitting the right arrow again jumped me to slide 7, which is wrong.  Opera 8.5 acted as intended, so I’m going to assume that it has something to do with how the JavaScript is written.

If there are problems in Opera 8.5 or Opera 9 that my testing didn’t uncover, let me know.  I’ll fix anything I can—and if there’s anything I can’t, I’ll turn it over to the Opera community to figure out.  Members of that community have already been invaluable in figuring out how to work around bugs in Opera’s CSS handling in order to make the controls available, so I’m confident they’ll be able to handle anything I can’t figure  out.


To Hack With It

Published 19 years, 2 months past

To follow up on what I said recently, there’s another major reason to remain un-stressed about the impending release of IE7 and the use of CSS hacks.  If you read over the list of things that have been fixed, they read like a who’s who of CSS hacks—and a who’s who of the reasons we use most CSS hacks in the first place.

How is that the ticket to a stress-free existence?  I’ll give you an example.  One IE bug I deal with a lot is the doubled-margin float bug.  So I’ll write something like this:


#main {float: left; width: 30em; margin-left: 150px;}
* html #main {margin-left: 75px;}

I’ve halved the margin value in the “IE/Win only” line, which is the second one; that’s the CSS hack part of the duo.  By taking this approach, the layout is consistent between IE/Win and every other modern browser out there.

Okay, so here comes IE7, which the team says has a fixed CSS parser so the Tan hack (which is what I used) isn’t recognized.  That means IE7 completely skips the second line, the one with the hack.  But IE7 has also fixed the double-margin bug on floats.  So the hack rule is completely ignored by IE7, and it acts like other browsers when reading the first.  It’s like it was Firefox or something.  Meanwhile, any IE6 users out there get a consistent experience thanks to the Tan hack line, which it still recognizes.

So why aren’t I proclaiming that there’s absolutely nothing to worry about, as opposed to declaring my intent to stand pat?  Because the promised fixes are just that: promises.  I have no doubt as to the IE team’s deep desire to get these fixes shipped.  They may, however, find themselves overruled by other factors on one or more fixes.  Perhaps a given fix breaks the layout of eBay, or interacts badly with a particular version of Windows.  Simply put, forces beyond their control might lead to a shipping browser that doesn’t fix everything they want to fix.

That’s a big part of why I said I wasn’t going to make any moves until we have a working release in hand.  There’s absolutely no sense in rewriting all our style sheets to remove hacks—at least, there’s no sense right now.  We’d be trying to author against a moving, distant, and phantom target.  That’s a recipe for frustration.

In general, if the planned fixes do come through, then as far as site breakage, the advent of IE7 will be practically a non-event in the standards-oriented design community.  Assuming those  fixes are released, we’ll honestly have next to nothing to do.  Yes, there will be examples here and there of sites doing funky stuff and experiencing problems, as with Slashdot.  Those problem sites will be identified and fixed one way or another—maybe new hacks, maybe conditional comments, maybe reformulations of markup and CSS.  The same basic thing happened when IE6 came out, and I suspect we’ll have less upheaval with IE7 than with IE6—and IE6 was pretty small stuff, site-breakage-wise.

Note that I suspect.  I don’t know.  Nobody can know until the IE team releases a version with the fixes included.  When that happens, then we’ll start figuring out which way to jump.  Or I will, at any rate.  If anyone out there wants to do a little pointless panicking ahead of time, well, be my guest.


IE7 and IE7

Published 19 years, 2 months past

As noted on the WaSP site, the IE team is asking developers to clean up their CSS hacks because they’re causing sites to break in IE7 builds.

I have to admit that this call elicited an arid little chuckle from me, because it’s a case of chickens coming home to more than one roost.  There’s the fact that bugs in older versions of IE led us to use hacks, and so they’re making life harder for the IE team.  And then there’s the fact that the use of hacks is an inherently risky and fragile process, so the release of IE7 will make life harder for those who used them.  No smug self-superiority should be read into that second point, by the way: I quite firmly include myself in that crowd.

So—now what?  Personally, I’m not going to make a move until an IE7 beta with new CSS behavior is released.  Why change hacks just to have to hack more?  Put another way, if the ground is going to start shifting, there isn’t much sense in trying to guess how.  Wait until it does, and then adjust your footing.

Still, it might pay to consider ways to cope once the ground shifts.  This leads to something I’ve been pondering for a bit, and now’s a good time to bring it up.  When IE7 (the browser) comes out, it will make IE7 (the script) even more useful than it is now.

Here’s why: all the stuff that IE7 (the script) does, IE7 (the browser) is supposed to do as well.  That is to say, the script can bring IE6 up to par with IE7 the day IE7 is released.  See where I’m headed with this?  Instead of being chained to the fat tail of IE6 installs while being unable to use parser hacks in IE7, we can clear away the hacks and have IE6 and IE7 act basically the same.

They will of course not act exactly the same, and yes, there are drawbacks.  IE6 users will have to download the extra script, and those with JavaScript disabled will have problems.  Not every site will be able to accept those costs—but I’d wager the vast majority will.

In the main, it will be a lot less painful to clear out the hacks with IE7 (the script) available than without it.  A lot.

Oh, and before people start exhorting the use of conditional comments instead, it’s still too soon to know how good an idea that might be.  Doubtless they’ll come into play, but exactly how is completely unpredictable until we know what IE7 actually does.  Perhaps we’ll start using conditionals around the call to IE7 (the script).  Perhaps not.  Time will tell.

As I said before, it’s too soon to know which hacks to clear away or how to rework our code, but thanks to Dean Edwards’ efforts, I’m feeling a distinct lack of stress over the impending shifts.


When Printing Maims

Published 19 years, 3 months past

Okay, ALA fans, we’ve deployed a print style sheet on the articles.  I don’t know if I could call it done, but it’s a big step.  Why wasn’t it online sooner?  Say it with me: “browser bugs”.  Just when the convergence of screen CSS handling had me feeling good, I had to go and mess with print styling.  Good feeling’s gone.

At the moment, the print styles seem to work quite well in modern browsers except for Firefox 1.0.6 (which is what I have in OS X).  There, when I call up a print preview, any article is fine until page 4.  Then things go off the rails in short order.  Content disappears, margins go wild, all kinds of fun stuff.  Here, try previewing or printing Nick Usborne’s “Helping Your Visitors: a State of Mind.  Now try it with J. David Eisenberg’s “Validating a Custom DTD” or (somewhat ironically) Ross Howard’s “High-Resolution Image Printing“.  Pages 1-3 are fine for me, but after that, no good.  When you get a nice long article like Joe Clark’s “Facts and Opinion About PDF Accessibility” or (completely ironically) my own “Going To Print“, you’re just asking for trouble.

I tried searching Bugzilla for some report, but my skills over there are not what once they were.  So while I got a bunch of results, I don’t know if any of them described this problem.  Could some kind soul let me know if there is a report on this sort of thing already?  If not, I can submit the report.  I just don’t want to add yet another DUPLICATE to the database.

And hey, if you can work out a solution to the problem, I have a factory-fresh ALA T-shirt all ready to send out—you even get to choose which one you want.  Let me know.

Update: Dan Wilkinson is our winnah!


Reserved ID Values?

Published 19 years, 3 months past

As a followup to my entry about id="tags" causing problems in IE/Win, here are four five test pages for IE/Win:

These are based on Kevin Hamilton’s observation that it’s highly likely the problems are caused by the tags method in IE/Win’s document.all DOM interface.  As he says:

[I]f you have an element with an id=”tags”, then document.all.tags is now a reference to that element, and no longer a method of the document.all object.

Such states would completely shatter any IE DOM scripting that relied on the document.all methods, and at least in the case of tags causes problems like crashing on print (probably because of the aforementioned conflict between the ID value and the DOM method).  The other keywords of concern are chronicled in the test pages listed above.  I’d test IE/Win myself, except I don’t have a printer handy for IE/Win to use, and besides, bug-hunting is best conducted in large groups.

Basically, load up each test page in IE/Win and do anything you can think to do.  Try to print, view source, save a local copy, et cetera, et cetera—the more obscure and offbeat, the better.  Let us know via the comments any problems you run into with said pages (trying to print them is a good first step, since that’s what messed up on tags) and I’ll add notes to each page based on what’s found.

In the meantime, I’m personally going to avoid using any of those words as ID values, and heartily recommend the same to you.

Update: I’ve added a test (for length) to the above list, and have another that’s not on the list due to its unfinished nature.  It’s a test of id="all"; the problem is, I don’t really know how to test it, or if it’s likely to be a problem at all.  Suggestions are welcomed in the comments.  I added some JavaScript links to some of the test pages as a secondary test, but I’m not sure how much good they do, to be honest.  As with suggestions, your feedback is welcome.

For those in search of more background, or trying to find new ways to test possible conflicts, or whatever, feel free to look over Microsoft’s documentation of the “all Collection”.


When Printing Kills

Published 19 years, 3 months past

Here’s a fascinating little tidbit: on some users’ machines, attempts to print out Joe Clark‘s ALA article “Facts and Opinions About PDF Accessibility” would crash Internet Explorer.  The error message mentioned a script error in line 1401: “Object doesn’t support this property or method”.  Funny thing: we weren’t doing any scripting.  The error was actually occurring shdoclc.dll/preview.dlg, which is of course a piece of the operating system.

Jason did some sleuthing and traced the crash to this line of markup:

<h2 id="tags">Tags and structure</h2>

Honestly, that was it.  So Jeffrey renamed the ID to read:

<h2 id="structure">Tags and structure</h2>

So far as we know, no more crashing in Explorer.

Ain’t browsers a slice?

(And yes, we’re aware of the clamor for a print style sheet.  More on this later.)

Update: Marten Veldthuis from Strongpsace points out that 37signals ran into a very similar problem in Backpack.  Details can be found in Jamis Buck‘s June 3rd post ie-is-teh-3v1lSpread the word: “tags” is effectively a reserved keyword, even though no such concept exists in (X)HTML.  Use it at your (users’) peril.


Web Page, Mutated

Published 19 years, 5 months past

One of the first rules of life is that first-hand information is always better than second-hand information.  You can be more certain of something if you’ve seen it with your own eyes.  Anything else is hearsay, rumor, conjecture—an article of faith, if you will.  At the very minimum, you have to have faith that your source is reliable.  The problems begin when sources aren’t reliable.

No, this isn’t a rant about the intelligence screw-ups previous to the invasion of Iraq.  Instead, it’s a warning that inspector programs and saving as “Web page, complete” features can lead you astray.

One such example came up recently, shortly after I mentioned the launch of the new Technorati design.  A question came in:

I did want to ask about the use of -x-background-{x,y}-position as opposed to background-position. If I understand correctly, the -x prefix indicates an experimental CSS attribute, so in what circumstances should one use this sort of experimental attribute instead of an official one?

I’d have been glad to answer the question, if only I’d known what the heck he was talking about.  Those certainly weren’t properties I’d added to the style sheets.  They weren’t even properties I’d ever heard of, proprietary or otherwise.

Just to be sure, I loaded the CSS files found on the Technorati site into my browser and searched them for the reported properties.  No results.  I inquired as to where the reporter had seen them, and it turned out they were showing up in Firefox’s DOM Inspector.

Now, the DOM Inspector is an incredibly useful tool.  You can use it to look at the document tree after scripts have run and dynamically added content.  You can get the absolute (that is, root-relative) X and Y coordinates of the top left corner of every element, as well as its computed dimensions in pixels.  You can see the CSS rules that apply to a given element… not just the everyday CSS properties, but the stuff that the Gecko engine maintains internally.

That’s where the problem had come in.  The DOM Inspector was showing special property names, splitting the background-position values into two different pseudo-properties, and not showing the actual background-position declaration.  This, to me, is a flaw in the Inspector.  It should do two things differently:

  1. It should show the declaration found in the style sheet.  There should be a line that shows background-position and bottom left (or whatever), because that’s what the style sheet contains.
  2. It should present the internally-computed information differently than the stuff actually taken from the style sheet.  One possibility would be to show any internal property/value pair as gray italicized text.  I’d also like an option to suppress display of the internal information, so that all I see is what the style sheet contains.

The person who asked why I was using those properties wasn’t stupid.  He was just unaware that his tool was giving him a distorted picture of the style sheet’s contents.

Don’t think Firefox is the only culprit in unreliable reporting, though.  Anyone who uses Internet Explorer’s save as “Web page, complete” feature to create a local copy for testing purposes isn’t getting an actual copy.  Instead of receiving local mirrors of the files found on the Web server, they’re getting a dump from the browser’s internals.  So an external style sheet will actually be what the browser computed, not what the author wrote.  For example, this:

body {margin: 0; padding: 0;
  background: white url(bodybg.gif) 0 0 no-repeat; color: black;
  font: small Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;}

…becomes this:

BODY {
	PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px;
BACKGROUND: url(bodybg.gif) white no-repeat 0px 0px;
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; MARGIN: 0px; FONT: small Verdana, Arial, sans-serif;
COLOR: black; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}

Okay, so it destroys the authoring style, but it isn’t like it actually breaks anything, right?  Wrong.  For some reason, despite IE treating the universal selector correctly, any rule that employs a universal selector will lose the universal selector when it’s saved as “Web page, complete”.  Thus, this:

#sidebar {margin: 0 74% 3em 35px; padding: 0;}
#sidebar * {margin: 0; padding: 0;}

…becomes this:

#sidebar {
	PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px;
MARGIN: 0px 74% 3em 35px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}
#sidebar  {
	PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px;
MARGIN: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px
}

Oops.  Not only can this mean the local copy renders very differently as compared to the “live” version, it’s also very confusing for anyone who’s saved the page in order to learn from it.  Why in the world would anyone write two rules in a row with the same selector?  Answer: nobody would.  Your tool simply fooled you into thinking that someone did.

Incidentally, if you want to see the IE-mangled examples I showed in a real live set of files on your hard drive, go save as “Web page, complete” the home page of Complex Spiral Consulting using IE/Win.  And from now on, I’ll always put “Web page, complete” in quotes because it’s an inaccurate label.  It should really say that IE will save as “Web page, mutated”.

So if you’re Inspecting a page, or viewing a saved copy, remember this:  nothing beats seeing the original, actual source with your own eyes.  If you see something odd in your local copy, your first step should be to go to the original source and make sure the oddness is really there, and not an artifact of your tools.


Don’t Read; Speak!

Published 19 years, 5 months past

With the debut of the WSP‘s ATF, a vigorous conversation has gotten underway.  Joe Clark weighed in with some suggestions, Andy Clarke got some rousing comment action, and more have spoken up.  This follows some recent and widely-cited thoughts from Matt May on WCAG 2.0 (with opposing view from Gez Lemon), and from Andy Clarke regarding accessibility and legislation (which inspired the publication of a different view from Andy Budd, not to mention another from Chris Kaminski).  I’ll join the chorus with some points of my own.  (Apparently, my recent post Liberal vs. Conservative was taken as a contribution to the discussion, which it wasn’t meant to be, although the points raised there are definitely worth considering in this context.)

This past May, I delivered a keynote at the 2nd International Cross-Disciplinary Workshop on Web Accessibility in Tokyo, and one of the major points I made was basically this: “Screen readers are broken as designed, and need to become speaking browsers”.

The problem is that screen readers are just that: they read what’s displayed on the screen for a sighted user.  In other words, they let Internet Explorer render the Web page, scrape the visual result, and read that.  I will acknowledge that in the tables-and-spacers era of design, this made a certain amount of sense.  That era is ending; in an important sense, it’s already over and we’re just cleaning up the mess it left.  Which is not to say that table markup is never and should not presently be used for layout purposes, nor is this to say that such markup should be used.  Okay?

What I’m saying is that screen readers need to become speaking browsers: they need to ignore how the page is visually displayed, and read the content.  Use semantic markup when it exists, and otherwise ignore the markup in favor of the actual words, whether it’s plain text or alt text.  Go from the beginning of the document to the end of the document, and ignore the CSS—at least that CSS which is meant for visual media, which these days is pretty much all of it.

You might wonder how a speaking browser should deal with a table-driven site, of which there are still quite a few, he said with some understatement.  One distinct possibility is to do what I just said: ignore the non-semantic markup and read the content.  I can accept that might fail in many cases, so I’ll present a fallback: DOCTYPE switching.  If a document has a DOCTYPE that would put a visual browser into standards mode, then be a speaking browser.  If not, then be a screen reader.

DOCTYPE switching has been, despite a few hiccups, incredibly successful in helping designers move toward standards, and allowing browsers to permit standards-based design without sacrificing every page that’s come before.  The same, or at least a very similar, mechanism could help audible-Web tools.

The WaSP has done great things in their efforts to show vendors why Web design tools should produce standards-oriented markup and CSS.  I sincerely hope they can produce similar results with audible-Web vendors.


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