Posts in the DOM Category

JavaScript Will Save Us All

Published 17 years, 2 months past

A while back, I woke up one morning thinking, John Resig’s got some great CSS3 support in jQuery but it’s all forced into JS statements.  I should ask him if he could set things up like Dean EdwardsIE7 script so that the JS scans the author’s CSS, finds the advanced selectors, does any necessary backend juggling, and makes CSS3 selector support Transparently Just Work.  And then he could put that back into jQuery.

And then, after breakfast, I fired up my feed reader and saw Simon Willison‘s link to John Resig’s nascent Sizzle project.

I swear to Ged this is how it happened.

Personally, I can’t wait for Sizzle to be finished, because I’m absolutely going to use it and recommend its use far and wide.  As far as I’m concerned, though, it’s a first step into a larger world.

Think about it: most of the browser development work these days seems to be going into JavaScript performance.  Those engines are being overhauled and souped up and tuned and re-tuned to the point that performance is improving by orders of magnitude.  Scanning the DOM tree and doing things to it, which used to be slow and difficult, is becoming lightning-fast and easy.

So why not write JS to implement multiple background-image support in all browsers?  All that’s needed is to scan the CSS, find instances of multiple-image backgrounds, and then dynamically add divs, one per extra background image, to get the intended effect.

Just like that, you’ve used the browser’s JS to extend its CSS support.  This approach advances standards support in browsers from the ground up, instead of waiting for the browser teams to do it for us.

I suspect that not quite everything in CSS3 will be amenable to this approach, but you might be surprised.  Seems to me that you could do background sizing with some div-and-positioning tricks, and text-shadow could be supportable using a sIFR-like technique, though line breaks would be a bear to handle.  RGBa and HSLa colors could be simulated with creative element reworking and opacity, and HSL itself could be (mostly?) supported in IE with HSL-to-RGB calculations.  And so on.

There are two primary benefits here.  The first is obvious: we can stop waiting around for browser makers to give us what we want, thanks to their efforts on JS engines, and start using the advanced CSS we’ve been hearing about for years.  The second is that the process of finding out which parts of the spec work in the real world, and which fall down, will be greatly accelerated.  If it turns out nobody uses (say) background-clip, even given its availability via a CSS/JS library, then that’s worth knowing.

What I wonder is whether the W3C could be convinced that two JavaScript libraries supporting a given CSS module would constitute “interoperable implementations”, and thus allow the specification to move forward on the process track.  Or heck, what about considering a single library getting consistent support in two or more browsers as interoperable?  There’s a chance here to jump-start the entire process, front to back.

It is true that browsers without JavaScript will not get the advanced CSS effects, but older browsers don’t get our current CSS, and we use it anyway.  (Still older browsers don’t understand any CSS at all.)  It’s the same problem we’ve always faced, and everyone will face it differently.

We don’t have to restrict this to CSS, either.  As I showed with my href-anywhere demo, it’s possible to extend markup using JS.  (No, not without breaking validation: you’d need a custom DTD for that.  Hmmm.)  So it would be possible to use JS to, say, add audio and video support to currently-available browsers, and even older browsers.  All you’d have to do is convert the HTML5 element into HTML4 elements, dynamically writing out the needed attributes and so forth.  It might not be a perfect 1:1 translation, but it would likely be serviceable—and would tear down some of the highest barriers to adoption.

There’s more to consider, as well: the ability to create our very own “standards”.  Maybe you’ve always wanted a text-shake property, which jiggles the letters up and down randomly to look like the element got shaken up a bit.  Call it -myCSS-text-shake or something else with a proper “vendor” prefix—we’re all vendors now, baby!—and go to town.  Who knows?  If a property or markup element or attribute suddenly takes off like wildfire, it might well make it into a specification.  After all, the HTML 5 Working Group is now explicitly set up to prefer things which are implemented over things that are not.  Perhaps the CSS Working Group would move in a similar direction, given a world where we were all experimenting with our own ideas and seeing the best ideas gain widespread adoption.

In the end, as I said in Chicago last week, the triumph of standards (specifically, the DOM standard) will permit us to push standards support forward now, and save some standards that are currently dying on the vine.  All we have to do now is start pushing.  Sizzle is a start.  Who will take the next step, and the step after that?


Reserved ID Values?

Published 20 years, 4 months past

As a followup to my entry about id="tags" causing problems in IE/Win, here are four five test pages for IE/Win:

These are based on Kevin Hamilton’s observation that it’s highly likely the problems are caused by the tags method in IE/Win’s document.all DOM interface.  As he says:

[I]f you have an element with an id=”tags”, then document.all.tags is now a reference to that element, and no longer a method of the document.all object.

Such states would completely shatter any IE DOM scripting that relied on the document.all methods, and at least in the case of tags causes problems like crashing on print (probably because of the aforementioned conflict between the ID value and the DOM method).  The other keywords of concern are chronicled in the test pages listed above.  I’d test IE/Win myself, except I don’t have a printer handy for IE/Win to use, and besides, bug-hunting is best conducted in large groups.

Basically, load up each test page in IE/Win and do anything you can think to do.  Try to print, view source, save a local copy, et cetera, et cetera—the more obscure and offbeat, the better.  Let us know via the comments any problems you run into with said pages (trying to print them is a good first step, since that’s what messed up on tags) and I’ll add notes to each page based on what’s found.

In the meantime, I’m personally going to avoid using any of those words as ID values, and heartily recommend the same to you.

Update: I’ve added a test (for length) to the above list, and have another that’s not on the list due to its unfinished nature.  It’s a test of id="all"; the problem is, I don’t really know how to test it, or if it’s likely to be a problem at all.  Suggestions are welcomed in the comments.  I added some JavaScript links to some of the test pages as a secondary test, but I’m not sure how much good they do, to be honest.  As with suggestions, your feedback is welcome.

For those in search of more background, or trying to find new ways to test possible conflicts, or whatever, feel free to look over Microsoft’s documentation of the “all Collection”.


When Printing Kills

Published 20 years, 4 months past

Here’s a fascinating little tidbit: on some users’ machines, attempts to print out Joe Clark‘s ALA article “Facts and Opinions About PDF Accessibility” would crash Internet Explorer.  The error message mentioned a script error in line 1401: “Object doesn’t support this property or method”.  Funny thing: we weren’t doing any scripting.  The error was actually occurring shdoclc.dll/preview.dlg, which is of course a piece of the operating system.

Jason did some sleuthing and traced the crash to this line of markup:

<h2 id="tags">Tags and structure</h2>

Honestly, that was it.  So Jeffrey renamed the ID to read:

<h2 id="structure">Tags and structure</h2>

So far as we know, no more crashing in Explorer.

Ain’t browsers a slice?

(And yes, we’re aware of the clamor for a print style sheet.  More on this later.)

Update: Marten Veldthuis from Strongpsace points out that 37signals ran into a very similar problem in Backpack.  Details can be found in Jamis Buck‘s June 3rd post ie-is-teh-3v1lSpread the word: “tags” is effectively a reserved keyword, even though no such concept exists in (X)HTML.  Use it at your (users’) peril.


Browse the Archive

Later Entries