Posts in the CSS Category

CSS Gridlock

Published 20 years, 11 months past

I mentioned in my post that the only CSS grid layout capability is styled tables.  Then I said that the only “pure CSS” grid layout approach being to apply table-related display values to non-table elements.  In one sense, I said the same thing twice, but in another sense, I contradicted myself.  When I read the post again, I decided that a little clarification was in order.

So let’s say that you have a deep burning desire to create a grid-based layout without using any table markup.  Suppose this layout is based on a 3×3 concept, where the pieces all need to have their horizontal and vertical edge line up with each other.  To do that, you’d need styles and markup like the following:

<div id="layout">
 <div class="hgroup">
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
 </div>
 <div class="hgroup">
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
 </div>
 <div class="hgroup">
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
  <div class="cell">...content...</div>
 </div>
</div>

Then, to that markup, you’d apply the following styles:

div#layout {display: table;}
div.hgroup {display: table-row;}
div.cell {display: table-cell;}

So there you go: a grid layout that uses absolutely no table markup by applying table display roles to other elements.  And the point is…?

Frankly, I don’t think there is one.  Because let’s be honest, given a choice between the markup in that previous example and this next one, I think the next one is not only easier to read, but it’s lighter in markup weight.

<table id="layout">
 <tr>
  <td>...content...</td>
  <td>...content...</td>
  <td>...content...</td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td>...content...</td>
  <td>...content...</td>
  <td>...content...</td>
 </tr>
 <tr>
  <td>...content...</td>
  <td>...content...</td>
  <td>...content...</td>
 </tr>
</table>

Not to mention the table will work in IE/Win, whereas the “pure CSS” version I detailed won’t.  That kind of puts a damper on any enthusiasm I might have summoned for it.

In CSS terms, the reason a table works the way it does is that the browser itself applies the following rules from somewhere deep within its codebase:

table {display: table;}
tr {display: table-row;}
td {display: table-cell;}

I know, tables have existed for longer than CSS, but my point isn’t that CSS makes tables possible.  What I’m saying is that that’s the CSS way of describing a table and how it functions.  If you want elements that effectively bind together and affect each other’s height and width, then table-related display values are the only game in CSS Town.

Is that enough?  It doesn’t feel like it to me, but on the other hand, any grid-layout system would have to do basically the same things.  For example, suppose we invented a set of properties and values to describe a grid layout.  They might look something like this:

div#layout {display: grid-layout;}
div.hgroup {display: grid-layout-group;}
div.cell {display: grid-layout-box;}

…for which we could simply substitute the table values mentioned earlier, and get the same result.  Why reinvent that particular wheel, especially when the new wheel would take even more years to be adopted?

There are only bigger problems lurking in related proposals.  A common request is a way to set the height of one element to equal another element.  Here’s the problem:

div#one {height: element(div[id="two"]);} /* totally bogus CSS-like example */
div#two {height: element(div[id="one"]);} /* DO NOT TRY THIS; IT WON'T WORK */

An infinite loop!  Yay!  Now what?  Furthermore, assuming you have a way to break the loop, which of the two elements in question will be the one that’s actually used to set the height for both?  There’s nothing in that set of rules that says that the taller of the two should win out, so you might end up with the two element set to the height of the shorter of the two.  What are the odds that’s what was desired?  (Non-zero, but pretty darned small.)  Then again, it might be the taller of the two.  Or maybe they’ll set to the average of the two elements’ content heights, so you get one too tall for its content and one that’s too short.

And this is a simple case, one that could probably be fairly easily resolved.  The complicated cases are where real trouble sets in, because you can get runaway situations where two (or three or more) elements keep triggering growth in each other, heading for infinity as fast as your rendering engine can calculate it.  If you allow value expressions—another common request—then it gets even worse.  For example:

div#one {height: element(div[id="two"]);}    /* see previous warning */
div#two {height: expression(element(div[id="one"])+25px);}

Ruh-roh, Raggy.

You might say, “Well, if any author is dumb enough to do that, then they get what they deserve.”  Only the author doesn’t get it, the reader does.  If you come across such a page, your (height-linking and expression capable) browser will freak out, maybe even crash.  Hopefully the developers made sure to add infinite-loop checks to prevent such nastiness, but are you sure they’ll manage to catch every possible case?  Without standing in the way of legitimate iterative processes?

And so we come back full circle to the present, where the only real choice for grid-dependent layouts are tables.  They should always be simple tables, employing a bare minimum of markup and styling the cell contents with CSS.  You can do that easily enough by ID’ing the cells, and writing your CSS accordingly.

And remember: this is only necessary for grid-dependent layouts.  Most layouts don’t fit that description, as I said in the previous post.  The only one that comes to mind at this moment is CNN.com, which has all those various boxes that need to line up just so (in the current design, anyway) even though there’s no guarantee of how tall or short they’ll be from one hour to the next.  They use tables to get those boxes to line up, as well they should—really, as well they have to, because there’s nothing else they could do outside of creating an all-Flash site.  But for the vast majority of sites, as Doug said, there’s no reason to use tables for layout.


Sliding Faux Columns

Published 20 years, 11 months past

A while back, in the summary to his article “Throwing Tables Out The Window“, Doug asserted:

There’s no longer any reason to use tables for layout, nor is there reason to maintain multiple versions of a site solely for different desktop browsers. Throw the tables out first. Trust us, they’re not needed anymore.

At the time, I remember thinking that I agreed with him for about 90% of design cases, but that there was that nagging 10% that still seemed to require tables.  That would be the cases where elements have to have the same visual height, regardless of their content height, and the layout is not fixed-width.  (Fixed-width cases can be easily handled using Dan Cederholm‘s Faux Columns.)  The classic example is a liquid two-column layout containing a sidebar and main-content column, where the sidebar has a different background than the main content, and that background has to be as tall as the main content—and, conversely, the main content’s background has to be as tall as the sidebar’s if the sidebar is taller.  There are ways to get this to happen using non-table markup, but it usually involves at least as much markup as using a simple table, and is less stable in older (NN4-era) browsers.  If  you go to three columns, all of which must match each other’s heights, then things get really wacky.

So I eventually got around to asking Doug about those cases, and it turned out he’d been mulling an idea similar to one I’d had but never pursued.  We tossed messages back and forth, hammering away at his idea, and eventually christened it ‘Sliding Faux Columns’.  Doug writes about this technique his recent post, Liquid Bleach.  Here’s the basic idea in a nutshell, quoted from Doug’s post:

The trick is to create an ultra-wide background image (or two images for 3-column layouts, thus the Sliding-Doors-nature of the technique). The image is partially opaque, and partially transparent. It gets tiled vertically inside the parent container, just like Dan’s Faux Columns technique. The opaque portion of the image should match percentages of the column it helps create, so that it can be positioned with an identical background-position value. This allows the transition from opaque to transparent to become the axis point for the background’s position.

Amazingly, the technique appears to work in IE5/Win and later.  IE5/Mac has some problems, and while the problems were vaguely familiar ones we never did manage to figure out how to work around them.  More recent browsers, like Safari and the Gecko family, seem to handle the technique just fine.

While we were working on the concept, I threw together some test cases.  They aren’t up to the usual css/edge standards, which is why you won’t find a link on the main css/edge page.  I’m putting them out in public because they might be interesting to anyone who wants to play with a boiled-down version of the technique.  Note that the super-wide images are only needed if you’re trying to fill a color or pattern into the background of the column(s).  If you just need a vertical separator, then an image as wide as the separator (say, one pixel) is all you need.  The CSS works out to be exactly the same in either case.  It’s just a difference of a 3000-pixel-wide background image versus a one- or two-pixel-wide image.

The markup isn’t exactly pretty: it requires a couple of wrapper divs just to set up the column backgrounds/separators.  This isn’t more markup-heavy than a table constructed to serve the same layout goals, but then it isn’t a whole lot less heavy either.  Personally, I remain agnostic on which is a better approach.  Bending a table to layout purposes isn’t clean, but to my eye, neither is constructing a couple of 3000-pixel background images just to get the effect a simple three-cell table can allow.  You’re hacking your way around limitations in CSS either way you go.

This brings me to a question I often encounter: “Why doesn’t CSS have a grid layout capability?”  It does: styled tables.  That’s pretty much it, but it’s there.  Until CSS gets grid-layout functionality that isn’t table-centric—the only “pure CSS” grid layout approach being to apply table-related display values to non-table elements, and boy, does that ever make a lot of sense—and that functionality is widely supported, then tables are the best grid-based layout system available in the (X)HTML+CSS space.

Before the purists warm up their flamethrowers and the CSS haters start to crow that I’ve done a Bush-style flip-flop, note that I said it’s the only grid layout system available.  The designs that absolutely require such a system are that 10% I was talking about earlier.  Most other designs don’t need a grid system, and so don’t need tables for layout.  The current Wired News design is one, the new Chevrolet site is another, and meyerweb is still a third.

As Doug has proven with Sliding Faux Columns, it’s possible to cover a good portion of those sites that would normally need a grid system without table markup.  That’s certainly interesting, and in one sense it’s quite useful in that it details the hoops through which one has to jump to make this sort of thing happen with CSS.  When you get right down to it, though, I’m feeling very ambivalent about which I’d prefer to use: Sliding Faux Columns or a simple table to set up the columns.  I suspect probably the latter, in my personal case.  The great thing is that now we have a choice for those kinds of designs.

For the small percentage of designs that really do require a full grid system, though—and I really have seen only a few in all my years of surfing the Web—tables are your only realistic choice.  I wish CSS had addressed that point in years past, so that we’d have some hope of support at present.  It’s always struck me as one of the biggest missed opportunities of CSS.


Up, Up and Away

Published 20 years, 11 months past

I bet you didn’t know that Molly and I have super-powers, did you?

The benefits of using CSS on a regular basis are amazing, really.  I’m hoping to develop telekinesis next.


More Markup

Published 20 years, 11 months past

Okay, apparently that wasn’t the rest of the story.  In part, that seems to be because I didn’t express what I was trying to say very clearly.  In others, it’s because people reminded me of points I should have made, or else brought up good points I didn’t address (or consider).  Time for some follow-up.

A few people said “who cares about three/six bytes?”  Me, obviously.  On many pages, such as the archived entry, it’s not going to be a big deal.  On the home page, it will be a slightly bigger deal.  On a monthly archive page, it’s common to see twenty or more dates on a single page.  There we start to measure weight reductions in tenths of a kilobyte.  If I take a similar approach in five other cases, that’s half a kilobyte.  It adds up over time, especially when you get several hundred thousand page views a month.  The difference is even more fractional when using gzip encoding, as I am.  But a gzipped 10.4KB page is still smaller than a gzipped 10.5KB page.  It will always be smaller.  Why not take the improvement, if nothing else is harmed?  (As I believe to be the case here, although obviously not everyone agrees.)

The most common objection to what I wrote is that using b violates “semantic purity”.  I disagree entirely.  span has no more semantic purity than b, in my view.  Both are intended for purely presentational effects.  Neither adds anything to the document’s semantics in a fashion that, for example, strong does.  So on those grounds, the choice is a wash; neither is any better than the other.  The only real difference between the two elements (besides their names) is that b has, mostly by tradition but also by way of description, a default presentational rendering—the text uses a bold font face.

Which leads to the next point, one I forgot to make in the previous post (that’s what I get for writing entries late at night).  As I just said, if you use b, then in a view of the document free of author CSS, the text will be boldfaced.  That’s exactly what I want in this case; in a browser where an h5 isn’t boldfaced by default, and there is no CSS being applied at all, I’d like the date to be boldfaced.  Why?  I just do.  Oh, sure, I could come up with a rationale like it being important to highlight the entry date in a weblog, but the reasons aren’t really relevant.  As the page author, those are the kinds of decisions I get to make.  So given that desire, b has another advantage over span for the case I’m describing.  In cases where you don’t want the text to be boldfaced in a rendering free of author CSS, then b is actually disadvantageous.  There will be inevitable complaints about presentational markup, but in a non-CSS environment, what other presentational influence can I have?  None.

It was also pointed out by a few people that I’m over-classing my markup, since I could easily use descendant selectors to get the same results.  That’s absolutely true.  The classes (title and meta) are more remnants of earlier designs, and have outlived their usefulness.  In the beginning, I used the classes because I thought I’d want to use sub-headings in journal entries, in order to break up long posts.  (Andrei does this quite a bit, as do some others.)  I wanted to be sure that the title and date styles applied only to those particular headings in an entry, and no others.  Since then, practice has shown that I never write entries with sub-headings, so the classes aren’t necessary, and in fact my CSS didn’t even need the classes to be there.  Thus, I’ve taken out the classes.  If I ever find myself wanting to break up an entry into headed sections, I’ll use h6 to do it.  So thanks to those who held my feet to the fire on that point.

Lachlan Hunt pointed out that I could save a lot more weight by using UTF-8 characters instead of encoded character entities.  True.  And if I could get UTF-8 to work, I’d probably try do that, assuming I could be sure the content wouldn’t be mangled in current browsers, a worry I definitely don’t have when it comes to element handling.  Lachlan also mentioned that in a CSS3 world, I could use the ::outside pseudo-element to generate another box for styling, instead of nesting one element inside another.  Yes, and in an XBL world I could just generate the extra box(es).  Until either one or both of those worlds comes to pass, markup is the answer.  In this case, I prefer b to span for all the reasons mentioned earlier.

As you might suspect, anyone who doesn’t accept my earlier assertions about markup semantics isn’t going to agree with my markup choices.  I’ve no problem with that; note that I never said anything even remotely resembling “b is always better than span“.  It isn’t.  Neither is span always better than b, as I’ve discussed here and in the previous post.  By all means, if you have a deep-seated aversion to presentational elements, then don’t use them.  In my world, one avoids using them when a semantic element would better serve the intent.  When there is no semantic need, then I figure you should use whatever works best for you.  Knowing how to tell the difference between these cases is a big step toward really understanding how to use markup efficiently and well.


Markup Missive

Published 20 years, 11 months past

In a previous post on heading levels, I used some of meyerweb’s markup as an example.  In that markup, an apparently useless <b> element appeared.  Here’s the markup:

<h4 class="title"><a href="…” title="…">entry title</a></h4>
<h5 class="meta"><b>entry date</b></h5>

In that post, I also said:

And yes, there are b elements in my markup, and I’m doing that on purpose.  I’ll talk about it some other time.

So now it’s time.

The boldface element is actually a holdover from the previous designs of meyerweb.  You can still mess with them on the theme example page, if you like.  The original idea was to provide an inline element as a hook on which I could hang some styles.  For example, if I wanted to put the date in a box that exactly surrounded the date’s text, but no more than that, I’d need an inline box.  Therefore, I could either style the <h5> element to generate an inline box, or I could have an inline element there for styling purposes.

In the first case (inlining the h5), I’d lose the block box that the element generates by default, thanks to the browser’s built-in HTML styling.  That might be okay in some cases, but more often than not it would be a problem.  Inline boxes accept a limited set of properties, and putting an inline box between two block boxes is generally a recipe for funkiness.  So that left me with the second case, that of adding an inline element.  As an added bonus, doing so gave me two elements (h5 and b) to style, if I wanted them both.

Here’s the CSS that applies to the date headings and their boldface elements:

#thoughts h5 {font-size: 1em; line-height: 1em;
  margin: 0 0 0.5em; padding: 0; color: #CCC;}
#thoughts h5 b {font-weight: normal; font-size: 0.9em;}

Although I’m not doing much with the b element, style-wise, what I’m doing is useful.  First, there’s making sure the font weight is normal, and not bold.  All right, that’s not really useful.  Second, the boldface element is used to reduce the size of the date’s font by a small amount.  I use the b element to reduce the size of the font because that leaves the element box of the h5 alone.  In other words, its text box is not reduced, which means it’s consistent with the text around it.  If I ever go back to a design where the date and title are “on the same line” and lined up with each other, as was the case in many of the old designs, I won’t have to do weird fractional math just to make it happen.

Of course, in the current design, that isn’t an issue.  So in a sense, the b element is sort of a vestige from an earlier stage in the site’s evolution, like a markup appendix.  The only difference here is that the b element might become useful again, whereas I don’t think the appendix has much chance of a comeback.

The other expected question is why, if all I wanted was an inline element as a styling hook, I used a b instead of a span.  Simple: the element name is three letters shorter, so for every hook, I’m saving six characters.  If there are, say, twenty such hooks on a page, that saves me 120 characters.  It’s a small consideration, but by such incremental savings are document weights reduced.  “What about semantic purity?” you may ask.  In my view, b and span have the same semantic value, which is to say basically none.  They’re both purely presentational elements, with the difference that span doesn’t have any expected presentational effects in HTML.  So I used the presentational hook that made the most sense to me: b.

If my goal was to emphasize the date, then I’d have used em or strong, but it wasn’t.  I just needed a hook, at least once upon a time, and that was the element I chose as my hook.

And now you have the rest of the story.


Public Rabidity

Published 21 years, 2 days past

Oh, joy.  I’ve once again been accused of an anti-Explorer bias.  This would amuse me if it weren’t for the fact that it means I’m being misrepresented, despite my long-term efforts to be clear about where I stand.  It might annoy me if I could be bothered to expend the energy.  I suppose I should view this as karmic justice for my original SEO post, where I contributed to the misrepresentation of others.

For the record, I am indeed sometimes critical of IE for being non-compliant.  I’m also critical of other browsers, although of late there has been less to criticize because IE has been standing still while others advance.  That’s just the nature of things right now.  I was critical of Netscape Navigator back when the most recent version was 4.whatever and everyone else (including IE) had advanced.  It’s often easier to see the flaws in something when you have a point of comparison.

The same post implies that I’m also a CSS zealot.  True, I think CSS is a very powerful and useful technology.  However, the day I start saying things like “you can never ever use tables for layout and screw IE if it can’t handle your design”, that’s when you can accurately call me a zealot.  Until then, it’s just name-calling, and not very effective name-calling at that.

I will admit that the phrase “‘holier-than-thou’ sages on the mount” was an amusing choice of words.  Think he’s seen Episode II of the UI9 comic?


Of Site Styles and CSS Columns

Published 21 years, 3 days past

Thanks to a post over at Simon’s weblog, I discovered that the Mozilla 1.8a3 readme file tells us of some interesting CSS-related developments:

       
  • Users can now disable CSS via Use Style > None or a global preference (bug 32372.)
  •    
  • Mozilla now supports a at-rule for matching on site/document URL. Among other things, this makes site-specific user style rules possible (bug 238099.)
  •    
  • Preliminary support for CSS columns has been checked in to Mozilla bug 251162.)

The middle of the three is what Simon wrote about, and it’s indeed very cool.  CSS signatures would never have been necessary if browsers had always supported per-site styles.  I’m not entirely thrilled about the syntax, but it’s a good start.  And for those who are wondering how I could support a non-standard extension, I’ve never been against them as long as they were clearly marked as such.  Microsoft’s extensions (behavior, filter, the scrollbar stuff) weren’t, which inevitably led to confusion.  The Mozilla stuff is marked in such a way that you can tell it’s an extension, and in a way that won’t conflict with future CSS.

I’m happy to see that Mozilla will finally let users easily disable CSS.  For those who need the text view, say because they have poor vision, it will be a welcome feature.  For those who want to quickly check the document’s unstyled rendering, it will be similarly useful.

But I’m most intrigued by the addition of “preliminary” support for CSS columns.  This would allow you to declare that a given element’s content should be flowed into columns, complete with auto-balanced heights and everything.  For example, if you wanted a list flowed into two columns, you could declare:

ul {-moz-column-count: 2;}

That would split the contents of every undordered list into two halves, filling the first column with the first half of the list and the second column with the second half.  Thoroughly awesome.  See the CSS multi-column layout module for more details, although I don’t know how much Mozilla actually supports at this juncture.

Update: it turns out that column support isn’t present in Mozilla 1.8a3, contrary to the release notes.  I’ve been told that it will be present in 1.8a4.


Creative Dissidence

Published 21 years, 3 weeks past

Self-described ‘Web hobbyist’ François Briatte recently conducted a survey of ten sites, comparing them on 25 different points, and has published the results.  I suggested that those responsible for the sites that were reviewed might write up their perspectives on the rankings and their dissidence levels, as Dave Shea and Jon Hicks have already done.  I tied for John Gruber for third, which amuses me.

I’ve seen some criticism of this survey scattered about, with two points made:

  1. The survey is too small, only examining ten sites.
  2. The survey is too limited in terms of the kinds of sites studied (all ten are basically Web design blogs, to one degree or another).

True, François picked ten sites instead of several hundred, all ten being sites that François reads regularly, and looked at them in detail.  Well, at least he went to the effort of doing it and publishing the results for free.  Don’t like the number of sites, or the sites surveyed, or the questions that were asked?  Fine.  Do your own survey and publish the results.  We’re waiting.  I’d actually like to see more such surveys, especially those done with the impressive degree of thoroughness and thought that François displayed.

Here are my thoughts about meyerweb’s rankings and the criteria in general; I’ll stick to commenting on those points where I differed from the crowd, or else where I think there’s something particularly interesting to note.

Are links underlined / are hovered links underlined / do visited links differentiate? (yes on all three)

As it turns out, my site is acting as a mirror for François’ browser preferences: I don’t assert link styles at all.  What I’d be interested to know is how many of the surveyed sites follow the same path.  My guess is few, or none.  Even Jakob‘s style sheet asserts link styles.

Is the layout fixed in width? (no)

Mine is not, and that leaves me in a strong minority.  I prefer a layout that flexes with the browser window, and I suspect I always will.  This does mean that the layout can start overlapping itself at very narrow window widths, but then a fixed-width design forces a scrollbar at narrow widths.  Which is better?  I’ve made my choice, of course, as have all the others surveyed.  I’ve yet to decide one way or the other is truly better, although of course many people have very strong opinions.

Is there a search box? (no)

I should probably add one, but for some reason it just never seems like a critical priority.  There is a search function on the archive pages for “Thoughts From Eric”, but that comes built into WordPress.  It may be that my reluctance stems from the fact that I’d probably end up using a Google search box, which seems like cheating.  I should probably get over myself and just do it.

Are “steal these” buttons used? (yes)

Dave Shea’s reaction was: “Ugh. Please, no.”  I think they’re useful, both for RSS feeds and for the “XFN Friendly” badge.  I’d also like to think they’re well integrated into my design (such as it is), although obviously that’s a matter of taste.

Does the navigation bar use image rollovers? (no)

Nope, it’s all text.  I may one day get fancier about the design (don’t hold your breath) and if so, I’ll probably have some kind of image rollover for the navigation.  At the least, I’d use a Sliding Doors-type decoration, which could count as an image rollover effect.

Is there a print stylesheet? (yes)

I have to admit to some surprise that the majority of the sites didn’t use one.  Mine is pretty low-key, doing basic things like preventing the sidebar from being printed.  I wish more sites did that kind of thing.  A link-filled sidebar is as useless on the page as it is useful on the Web.

Is the page UTF-8 encoded? (no)

I’m still kickin’ it ISO-8859-1 style.  This is in part because when I tried to enable UTF-8 encoding a while back, all my characters got thoroughly mangled.  I spent some time trying to fix it, and then dropped back to 8859, which I knew would work.  If I ever figure out how to do UTF-8 correctly, I’ll probably switch over.

Is the DOCTYPE Strict / is the page XHTML / is there an XML prolog? (no on all three)

I use HTML 4.01 Transitional, so clearly there wouldn’t be an XML prolog.  Even if I used XHTML, there wouldn’t be one, since its presence triggers quirks mode in IE6/Win—thus the 100% agreement among the surveyed sites on its absence.

So why HTML instead of XHTML?  Because there continue to be no major advantages to valid XHTML over valid HTML, which is what I strive to attain.  In some sense, there are disadvantages, albeit of a minor variety—I find trailing slashes on empty elements and the lack of attribute minimization to be annoying.  If I’d learned XHTML first, I’m sure I wouldn’t care about them, and would wonder why HTML was deficient in those areas.  Since I taught myself HTML when the cutting edge was HTML 2.0, I have some fairly deeply ingrained habits that cause me to lean toward HTML.  I also have a decade’s worth of documents that I don’t really feel like trying to convert to XHTML just so I can claim big markup geek bragging points.  Sure, there are tools that will do it for me.  Then I’d have to go back and check to make sure the tools didn’t mangle anything.

I’ve gotten the occasional critical e-mail about this over the past couple of years, chastising me for not being a role model in this area.  I like to think that I am.  I’m trying to show, by example, that there’s nothing wrong with using HTML 4.01 as long as you’re using it correctly.  If your HTML is valid, you’ll have no more trouble converting it to a ‘pure’ XML format than you will if XHTML is your starting point.  So I stay with HTML, and probably will for some time to come.

One other point: the education of my quotes is entirely due to WordPress, and in pages that aren’t part of WP I don’t have educated quotes.  C’est la mort.

I’ve already written François to congratulate him on his work, which I think is a good look at the underpinnings of the sites surveyed and sheds some light on points that don’t get discussed very often—or when they are, it’s in needlessly polarizing ways (witness the various flame wars over fixed width vs. liquid width, HTML vs. XHTML, and so on).  It’s refreshing to see someone collect some facts, do a little analysis, and freely share the results.


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